DSB vs Live rock in sump?

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by Travis1, 6 Dec 2011.

  1. Travis1

    Travis1 (wilsontravy)

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    hi guys. whats the difference between the 2 when used in the sump?
     
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  3. belindamotion

    belindamotion Google Master

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  4. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    liverock does not do the nitrate NO3 part.
    where DSB can.

    Liverock is expensive
    Playsand is cheap

    Use the expensive rock in your display.
    Use the cheap sand in your sump
     
  5. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon

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    Something I read somewhere is that a DSB is awesome when it eventually kicks in. I stand to be corrected but dont DSB's only start functioning after a few months or even after a year of cycling?

    Silly question but why not have both in your sump sir :whistling:
     
  6. crispin

    crispin

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    a dsb takes a while to mature (not cycle thats realy a different process) before the bacterial populations realy reach equilibrium and have the ability as riaan points out to process the NO3 section of the nitrogen cycle....(note to anyone----if that sounds complicated its a good idea to read up on the whole Nitrogen cycle in a recirculating system).

    DSB's and Rock chambers (LR in sump) have different requirements to function thus its difficult to combine the two in the smae compartment. there are a number of sections where they differ but the biggest one is the flow rate amnd type of flow required around LR would disturb and damage a dsb and vice versa.

    You can have a DSB as a remote chamber, or the LR for example and thats very disirable as it allows you to have a decent sized chamber to increase the foot print and thus the effectivness of the RLDSB (remote live deep sand bed, correct term) or LR chamber.

    the fall down of having remote filtration systems added onto a sump is the footprint is often too great to have it under tank and thus you need a dedicated fish room to house it, but it is greatly benificial to the display tank
     
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  7. Travis1

    Travis1 Thread Starter (wilsontravy)

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    Thanks, appreciate it. in general what should the flow rate be over the dsb?
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    3 to 6 months, maybe even faster, Depending on how you seed it.

    Here is mine after 7 weeks

    [​IMG][​IMG]




    Depends on the width of you sump. Aim for a flow strong enough so that the level of water on top of the last divider and the actual water level is between 6 and 10mm
     
  9. crispin

    crispin

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    sorry, i cant rember, there is a formula, i'll see if i can find a thread on it Sara wrote some good articles on the subject.

    however it looks like your flow it too fast over your dsb as its causing sand to blow around, if i read your other thread corectly.

    four options really:
    get a wider and bigger sump which will handle your flow better and allow you to have a decent sized dsb.
    or
    build a flow director over the inflow of the dsb (basically a piece of angled glass) that slows the water entering the dsb and stops the sand diturbance.
    or
    restrict your return flow (3800l/h sounds high but i dont know your tank size, so maybe look into that)
    or
    get a heavier subtrate such as aragonite which takes a heavier flow over it to be disturbed and is my personal choice for dsb as it seems to give a better environment to bugs and micro critters to live in than play sand.

    but for now do as others have said and wait a while for the filter socks to catch the particles and let things settle over some time:)
     
  10. crispin

    crispin

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    i assume youve read through the sections on dsb's (especially the stickies) under biological filtration....some great info there and I am sure you'll get your questions answered there?
     
  11. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    Have to agree but at the same time diagree with the above. It is possible to have the best of both worlds in your sump. In fact, I berliever one should.
    With regards to liverock not being able to complete the nitrogen cycle, untrue. Liverock is largely responsible for us being able to keep previously considered impossible to keep species, especially corals. This is primarily due to its ability to harbour all the bacteria required to complete the nitrogen cycle in its different oxygen gradient areas., and its ability to provide natural live food of the right size. I will concede that if properly installed, properly matured and maintained, it does outcompete rock in terms of cost, space and weight.
    However, the life in and on rock is significantly different from the life in and on sand, so for a balanced approach, use both.
    As crispin said, seems like the flow over dsb can be problem, although I looked at pics and looks more like a caco3 snowstorm, but difficult to say. Doubt if its the amount oif flow, rather its application. I recall pushing 1100LPH over a 80cm x 40cm sugarfine dsb, without hassles.
    There has been a lot of posts on not putting rock on sand, something to do with dead spots. I believe this is a misconception, as the effect of advection cannot be ignored. As water hits the rock, some will be forced down into the sand. I am not advocating covering dsb with rock, just saying that a few pcs will do more good than harm.
     
  12. crispin

    crispin

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    yeah, LR can convert NO3 deeper in where the 02 levels fall, but id say the primary advantage is in the areobic convertion, whilst a DSB is deliberatly used to create a lower 02 section for the conversion on NO3.both will do the job to a degree, but LR is better at areobic and a dsb at anerobic conversion. Aerobic needing higher flow and good 02 levles while anerobic slower water supply with decreased 02 levels, thus the combination dont realy compliment each other.

    i do agree that a few pieces of LR on a DSB isnt as big a hassel as can be, indeed it could be benificial, but im realy talking from a point of a LR chamber as opposed to a dsb.

    also i agrre with all youve said above, specifically, 'However, the life in and on rock is significantly different from the life in and on sand, so for a balanced approach, use both.' i just think its best to keep them seperatley to get best results from both :)
     
    Last edited: 6 Dec 2011
  13. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    Best to keep them in seperate compartments or containers, with a cheap flow pump or ten in the rock chamber, truly the best of both worlds.
    It has to be said though that we are referring to sump stock, and not display substrate here, as there is one very significant factor missing in your sump, i.e. Predation on microfauna.
     
  14. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    One or two small live rock pieces on the sand is good. That is my opinion. Even better are some big empty shells. The bristle worms needs some place to hide and do their thing. Same for Copepods and other creatures that needs a place to hide. Just open sand do not provide nice housing for bristle worms. Not a lot of rock.
     
  15. SteveZi

    SteveZi

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    I have some worms(i think) in my DSB that are pulling the chaeto into the sand...
    That can't be good, can it?
     
  16. crispin

    crispin

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    what type og worms stevie? ive never seen any that pull macro algae into their burrows, could u get a pic, or try give us a description?
     
  17. SteveZi

    SteveZi

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    Unfortunately no pics, but something pulled the chaeto down into the sand when I turned it a few days ago.
    I see some small thin worms on occasion - they use the sand to build burrows/tubes, or there are little heaps on the sand like small mole hills.
    I've seen some of those that extent tentacles - tangleworms I think, or medusa worms? cant remember exact name, but I think they are the culprits:)
     
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