DSB. Some good reading.

Discussion in 'Biological/Natural Filtration and Deep Sand Beds' started by carlosdeandrade, 6 Nov 2013.

  1. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2010
    Posts:
    8,230
    Likes Received:
    228
    Location:
    North Riding, Jozi
  2. AdS Guest




    to hide all adverts.
  3. mandarinman

    mandarinman

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    capetown,durbanville
    Each to his own. If we have problems if circulation in dt is too slow. What makes low circulation in dsb ok?
     
  4. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Centurion
    Well, I read them all
    Some of those guys use big words I do not even understand, nor have the urgent need to go and look it up in an online dictionary.

    anyway. Seems most of then guys who responded on that thread uses in display DSB systems. Where I got a sump DSB and then extra remote DSB. Most other systems I know of in South Africa that uses a DSB are using sumps.

    I do not think in display DSB is the best option, but then again there is a lot of guys with older systems 10 years plus running in display DSBs. My main reason for against a in tank DSB is the depth it uses. If your tank is 600mm deep, you sacrifice 25% of your viewing panel to see sand... Oh come on...
    A shallow 50mm or less sand bed will be 8% or less of the viewing panel. A lot more space for fish to swim and do their thing.

    Anyway, the advantage of in display DSB is that you will have more flow that will limit settlement. OK it will get stuck behind rocks. and that then is another problem to be able to siphon it out.

    What I do know is that most sump DSB are setup with not enough flow, resulting in settlement, that reefer is too lazy to siphon out. Plus then not seeded, not enough lifeforms in it. No hermit or 2 to walk around.

    Strangely though. On all those in tank DSB see how many guys comment that they have wrasses or engineering gobies, or gobies with pistol shrimps. They must dig up that DSB like crazy. And yet we tell people that if you touch the DSB you will kill everything in your tank. Nope. Well, digging it up completely while return pump is running will cause crap all over. But it is not a touch it and crash thing.

    What is interesting is the comment on silica sand and that phosphates will not bound to it. Is that a problem?
     
  5. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade Thread Starter

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2010
    Posts:
    8,230
    Likes Received:
    228
    Location:
    North Riding, Jozi
    It's a great thread. A good example of a adult conversation with both sides expressing their views. I've subscribed to to the thread and will enjoy its development.
     
  6. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Centurion
    Just a question. what happens to detritus when fully consumed? By the last smallest piece of bacteria that can find a part of it that the bacteria can still consume?

    As I got it, it becomes silt. And silt is just another form of mud. More place for bacteria to live on and worms to crawl about. But I do understand that eventually too much silt and you can block of the top layer of sand. So you need to siphon the top layer clean at times. It is not a total set and forget.
     
  7. pkc

    pkc

    Joined:
    17 Oct 2008
    Posts:
    632
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Brisbane-Queensland-Australia
    Oh mandarinman, you should know that!
    Slow as low flow-low oxygen-more nitrate reduction.
    Lets face it, if the deep sand bed remains clean, they are a god send, if not, then welcome to the pain in the ---- of overly abundant sulphate reduction and don’t dare disturb the dirty thing!
     
  8. mandarinman

    mandarinman

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    capetown,durbanville
    Basically a dsb has lifespan. My suggestion is that if a person uses a dsb the area that the dsb covers should be split down the middle by a sand level glass panel enabling reefer to periodically change halves of dsb alternately to prevent sewer backup and pass all water through filterwool before passing over dsb to prevent formation of detritis and it packing into dsb reducing flow and effectiveness of dsb
     
  9. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Centurion
    depends
    If you got hermits, strombidae snails, copepods and worms in and on your DSB then you want some food to reach them. For a sump DSB I found more flow to be better than too slow flow. Recon that is the reason why they get so much settlement on top starting the problems in the first place. due to too slow flow.

    Note that most of the systems referred to in that link use in tank DSB. With loads of flow. With gobies and wrasses. So
    where does that fit in?
    And those guys with in tank DSB, they got their powerheads causing a lot more flow than we have in our sump DSB. and check the age on them. Some old systems.
     
  10. mandarinman

    mandarinman

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    capetown,durbanville
    If you want a pristine dsb that does its work then I suggest preventing all detritis getting to it with the filterwool. I have all my water pass through a filterwool blanket and you cannot believe how much crap it pulls out of the water
     
  11. mandarinman

    mandarinman

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    capetown,durbanville
    Ps I dont have a dsb. I have an area under my filterwool blanket that has three kilos of seachem matrix media. It is much more effective in a much smaller area
     
  12. pkc

    pkc

    Joined:
    17 Oct 2008
    Posts:
    632
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Brisbane-Queensland-Australia
    Cool, that sounds good.

    And yes I have a barrier of filter wool and a catchment area with in my algae area and settling filters before my anaerobic trays, nothing gets past these things!
    The media trays have large particles of around 4 to 8 mill in size and each tray has a individual type of natural media and also have floors under each bed of media so that any possible particles fall through that may be dislodged via the high nitric acid environment some bacterium’s like to exist in, this environment incidentally breaks down minute amounts of the calcium based media over time.

    Richard, one of the aquasonic bros told us about a similar product they came up with to the matrix now that I tried a long time ago as trial from when we saw him at a trade show and after a while I found that its ultra tight porus nature allowed bacteria to catch or stick to their mass of near water soluble particles that will make it past a lot of mech filtration.
    It’s as if they catch it and make it a part of the whole community and it ends up looking like mud when disturbed.

    This ruins a reputation of having an immense surface area.
    I forget whether it was glass or ceramic or something else, it was a long time ago.
    In say, two years from starting to use this type of thing, shake it in the water collum and see what comes out of it, you will be surprised, that’s why I use only large particle media with a not so tight porus nature, it does take up more room, but virtually can not become blocked.
     
    Last edited: 7 Nov 2013
  13. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    14 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    16,770
    Likes Received:
    582
    Location:
    Sandton
  14. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Centurion
    Miracle mud is just the opposite of what PKC just promoted.
    Just shows you there are so many options out there.

    I want to recreate my DSB, section it into different "regions".
    Each region with different particle size. Had a look at this mud as an option for one region, then playsand then 2mm aragonite.

    What I do not know is in which sequence? Coarse to mud, or mud to coarse?
     
  15. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    14 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    16,770
    Likes Received:
    582
    Location:
    Sandton
    it wont make a difference which order
     
  16. mandarinman

    mandarinman

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    capetown,durbanville
    Courser first as it will get the most agitated water and not cloud up. Then go finer and finer as impetus dissipates
     
  17. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Centurion
    Somehow I do agree more with mandarinman
    Especially on wider sumps, with slower flow rates, or simply just sumps with slow flow rates. Most settlement would be in the entry point. So the substrate that can siphon the easiest should be there. But then again, to coarse and detritus can settle in deeper making siphoning more of a job.

    But I like the idea of different type of gravel regions. Organisms could then decide where they want to be. But over time, if not physically kept apart it will all just mix up anyway. Have to think a bit more on this
     
  18. mandarinman

    mandarinman

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    capetown,durbanville
    Somehow..... you.... agreeee with me? Id like to thank my mother. Father and.......
     
  19. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Centurion
    yes.
    As your message says, you are not a complete idiot.... ;)
     
  20. mandarinman

    mandarinman

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    capetown,durbanville
    Lmao
     
  21. pkc

    pkc

    Joined:
    17 Oct 2008
    Posts:
    632
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Brisbane-Queensland-Australia
    I have used the mud and so have three others that I know in varied ways and with algae as well and none of us will use it again.
    Its make up is great, but for me and some others that I know, that’s where the interest in the mud ends.
    But then I have herd of others saying that is great, so it’s like I always say and always do, try it your self then you know for sure.

    Potential sediment is why I came up with what I call settling pre filters; they help settle the rubbish out of suspension.

    Back when I played with the new plenum style and just deep beds of all kinds of media, I had to come up with something, none of the beds high quality lasted any longer then 3 years, that was the best one, they usually start the down hill run at around one and a half years.
     
Recent Posts

Loading...
Similar Threads - reading Forum Date
TDS Reading of RO Water Water Parameters and Additives 17 Nov 2016
RO water and TDS reading Water Parameters and Additives 25 Apr 2016
Salinity Reading @ 0 Water Parameters and Additives 30 Aug 2015
Salt readings Beginner Discussions 24 Aug 2015
RO filter TDS readings Water Parameters and Additives 29 May 2015
New, broke & reading way to much. New Members 29 Mar 2015
Low readings and dosing questions Beginner Discussions 8 Mar 2014