Do my fish have ich?

Discussion in 'Urgent Help Needed' started by vatso, 18 Feb 2010.

  1. vatso

    vatso

    Joined:
    3 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,733
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    JHB
    The first little guy I put in look at how fat he is :)

    [​IMG]

    My Clowns got these little white spots!!!

    as you can see they fat & are eating well

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  2. AdS Guest




    to hide all adverts.
  3. lanzo

    lanzo Sponsor

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    9,396
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Centurion
    Deff got ich

    Have you got q tank?


    if not then:

    Please do not increase temp like its indicated on any medicine....this will shorten the life span of the parasite and reduce the recovery period of the fish

    Lower s.g to 1.021

    and feed your fish vit vitamin inriched flakes(you can dip the flakes or food in vitamins...this will oost the imune system...i know lappiesreef alwasy threw in Cal-c-vita into the system...that worked for him

    But ill rather try the vtimain inriched food route
     
  4. vatso

    vatso Thread Starter

    Joined:
    3 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,733
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    JHB
    I am using Garlic on my flakes they are eating like a bomb! I don't have a Q tank will as soon as my new tank is ready!!

    I will drop SG - if I move my fish to a Q tank will the itch not still live in the sand & corals?

    Grrr the itch!!!
     
  5. lanzo

    lanzo Sponsor

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    9,396
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Centurion
    Yip it will ut the imune system of your fish will be up thus they can handle it.

    Any new fish with imune system down will catch the ich.

    Garlic is only a feeding enhancer....not i vitamin...get yourself Vitamin-c and vitamin-M and aminomega from Brightwell in your food.

    this will boost their imune system...or Growtech vitomino-M
     
  6. vatso

    vatso Thread Starter

    Joined:
    3 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,733
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    JHB
    Thanks Lanzo will do so tomorrow
     
  7. lanzo

    lanzo Sponsor

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    9,396
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Centurion
    100% keep us updated man:thumbup:
     
  8. vatso

    vatso Thread Starter

    Joined:
    3 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,733
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    JHB
    that now means they have itch & will only ever get gone once in a qtank for a month or so??
     
  9. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,142
    Likes Received:
    1,228
    Location:
    Centurion
    Yes, IF
    You remove ALL the fish in display tank. The White Spot live cycle must be upset, or broken. That means no fish in display tank for at least 4 weeks, preferable 6 weeks. Yikes that is a looonnngg time

    Else you gain nothing.

    All inverts can stay.
     
  10. maj

    maj

    Joined:
    13 Oct 2009
    Posts:
    2,054
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Cape Town
    itch is really a pita
     
  11. flappy

    flappy

    Joined:
    18 Jul 2007
    Posts:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Cape Town
    You will not kill Ich at a SG of 1.021
    You need to reduce to 1.012,problem is you need to do this gradually about 0.002 per day and your equipent to measure the SG needs to be super accurate or you could do more harm than good and of course remove all inverts from the tank before you do this as they cannot handle a reading off 1.012.I would prefer the following
    My advice
    Get a QT tank,even a big bucket,heater and airstone,put all fish in there for a month and treat with a decent copper treatment.Leave the DT empty for a month.
    Obviously get some filtration that is mature in there as well.

    ORmy personal fav
    Get two containers big eough to hold your fish(heater and airstone).Put your fish in the first container,each day swap the fish from one container to the other.When you take the fish out of one container to swap containers,drain the water,wash it out with fresh water and dry.Do this for two weeks then put all the fish in a qt tank for two weeks.What you are doing is throwing out the white spot cysts as they fall off the fish and not allow them to hatch breaking the life cycle.Lots of work but it works and you can avoid copper if you feel it is too harsh.

    Remember the white spot cycst can lie dormant in the tank waiting to hatch for up to 4 weeks.

    Good luck,oh and QT ALL new fish to avoid introducing it as well as check water parametres regulary to ensure preventation is better than cure

    My 2C worth
     
  12. vatso

    vatso Thread Starter

    Joined:
    3 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,733
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    JHB
    where does it come from? hmmm I need my new tank it seems will make it fish / glass only!!!
     
  13. rolien

    rolien

    Joined:
    16 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    johannesburg
    An interesting article I'd read:



    Article on Marine Ich


    Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

    One of the marine aquarist’s devils. So many articles have been written about it. Many are long or are in multiple parts. A lot is known about this marine fish disease because of the many $$$ put into research by the fish farming and aquaculture industries. First discovered (or the better word is 'noticed') in the 1800's and later more understood in the 1900's, we’ve learned about all there is to know about this parasite by the 2000's.

    I don’t want to write a long post on Marine Ich (MI) but the reader, in as brief of space as possible, should know some truths. The aquarist 'sees something' and then 'guesses' as to what it means and thus starts another round of rumors. It's almost a type of voodoo. It's easier to listen to a rumor of a short absolute statement then it is to read and understand the results of decades of studies and experiments. It is easier to try and take shortcuts with this disease by believing the parasite to be able or capable to do things or die from things it just can't, then it is to do the work to kill it, control it, or prevent it by the means that are known to work.

    It's time to separate out the rumors from the facts and the subjective observations (which start rumors) from actual scientific studies. In bullet form, here’s what is known:



    Life and Visuals:

    1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate, decoration, wall, equipment, or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.

    2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot is about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).

    3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.

    4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days BUT can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research.

    5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?! [​IMG] This leads freshwater aquarists to thinking the wrong things about Marine Ich, adding to the myths and rumors.

    6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).

    7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.

    8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite! [​IMG]

    9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80-90 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.

    10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINE LIFE DO NOT EAT THE PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES. [​IMG]

    11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.

    12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but the MI can be in their water, shells, etc.

    13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

    14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.



    Treatments:

    1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish. See: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...t-process.html

    2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong. See: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...-problems.html

    3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

    4. Only the above 3 known cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

    5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock. Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment.

    6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .

    7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).

    8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).

    9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.

    10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

    11. NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions, copper can be lethal to marine fishes. When using certain complexed copper medications, like Cupramine, the two can be used together. However I strongly advise even doing this. During a hyposalinity treatment, it is hard to control the pH. The buffering ability of the water is very weak, so pH shifts are very easy. In the presence of a copper medication, a sudden drop in pH can cause copper poisoning to the fish. Choose one or the other, depending upon whichever one you can work with; choose copper if the fish have an advanced case; choose hyposalinity whenever you have the time, patience and attention to give.



    Defense and Immunity:

    1. The fish’s mucous coating can provide some protection from the parasite. The mucous coating is where some fish immunity develops.

    2. When water temperature drops, mucous coating is often reduced or lost in marine fishes, that is why sometimes MI becomes visible on the body of the fish after a sudden drop in temperature. This meant, however, that the disease was present and living in the aquarium, infecting fish without the aquarist having been aware of it.

    3. No fish, no matter how good its defense is, can stop being infected. A healthy fish will and can be equally infected as a sick or stressed fish. What happens is the aquarists sees one or more fish with the disease and assumes because none are seen on the other fish in the aquarium that they are 'disease free.' NOT. Aquarists can't always see the parasites. See above top, 2., 3., and 9. All fish in an infected tank require treatment.

    4. A weak, stressed, or sick fish will die sooner than a healthy fish, but is no more likely to get infected than the healthy fish.

    5. A fish that survives an attack may develop proteins in the mucous coating that will help fend off the parasite (this is a type of immune response). An immune fish will usually not show being infected. Unfortunately. . .(see 6. below). . .

    6. An immune fish doesn’t remain immune. Separated from the disease for months, the once immune fish can become MI infected. OR if the immunity weakens, the fish will be attacked.

    7. Immunization seems to work, but not affordable or likely available to the hobby for many more decades. The immunization materials are hard to make, expensive, and slow to produce. Immunization usually only works for several months at a stretch.



    Subjective and Non-Subjective Observations, Claims, and Common Myths

    1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. True. [​IMG] Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition. They swim up to 25 miles a day in the ocean in search for food so maybe Mother Nature provided them with this as a means of 'escape.'

    2. It goes away on its own. Untrue. Only visible at one stage IF it is on the body or fin of the fish. It’s the life cycle. If it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist.

    3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. Untrue. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it will kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen.

    4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. Not true. See 3. It wasn’t gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, thus allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now visible to the aquarist.

    5. The fish lived the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. Can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.

    6. It was accurately diagnosed as MI spots, then never showed up again. It wasn’t MI or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.

    7. MI can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. True. So ‘it is gone’ after ‘it was here’ is very unlikely.

    8. Aquariums always have MI. Untrue. MI can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium. After keeping thousands of marine fishes, my home aquariums have been free of MI since 1970.

    9. Fish always have MI. Untrue. In the wild they often show up to 30% infected (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom.' In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.

    10. Like 9. a fish can't be made to be totally rid of MI. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any MI infection.

    11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Untrue. I compare this approach to this one: "Granny has pneumonia. Let's keep her home rather than take her to the hospital. We'll feed her well with chicken soup and vitamins." [​IMG] Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and obtain Resistance or immunity (see above) but while you sit comfortably in your home, the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!! [​IMG]

    12. A new cure has been discovered. Unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines! [​IMG]

    13. If the MI can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the MI parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying MI parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist.

    14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (why we don't know) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

    15. UV and/or Ozone kills MI. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Not all MI parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of MI. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for MI. [​IMG]

    16. Spots are MI. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and myth-information in the hobby is assuming the spot is Marine Ich when it may be one of another few dozen other parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Marine Ich. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured MI, when the fish didn't have MI to start with.

    17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of MI. Have you been reading the above? The 2 weeks is not long enough. Was the 2 weeks in isolation or is the fish's water mixed with other fish's water? Seeing is not believing, right? LFS employees don't have time to closely observe and study the fishes they have in stock, for a full 6 weeks. The truth is out there. . .Trust no one.



    PLEASE DON'T SPREAD RUMORS! [​IMG]






    [​IMG]
     
  14. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    29 May 2007
    Posts:
    17,868
    Likes Received:
    69
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Hi Vatso - I have moved your thread to the "Urgent help needed" forum.

    Your fish definitely have marine ich (cryptocarion (sp?) irritans).

    You have already been given good advice - good luck with following it and getting your fish 100% healthy again.
     
  15. Mauritius-aquarist

    Mauritius-aquarist

    Joined:
    13 Dec 2009
    Posts:
    560
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    mauritius
    Dude, no need to panic if the fish are eating like pigs, Their natural immunity is doing ze job for the moment. If u don't want to treat with copper and wants ur fish to stay in ze DT. U can follow lanzo's suggestion. If ur tank is not reef, then feel free to lower the SG down to 1017. Dats should be undertaken gradually. Fish actively drink the sea-water, but they need to filter the water before drinking it, i.e they remove the salt via the gills making them spend a lot of energy in dis process.Thus, Lowering the salinity would gr8ly facilitate the fish's tasks to spend more of its energy on its natural immunity to combat the disease rather than removing the salt from its gill.;).
    Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com
    U can get very interesting info there!
     
  16. lanzo

    lanzo Sponsor

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    9,396
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Centurion
    He cant drop the salinity below 1.020 in is display tank...have a look in the pic at the background...what do you see flappy....mmm corals

    Hence i mentioned....q tank
     
  17. colbar

    colbar

    Joined:
    6 Jan 2009
    Posts:
    382
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Johannesburg South Africa
    Flappy I twice have had ich, and WILL NEVER AGAIN put a new fish into the DT. Its just not worth it. I really like your idea of two buckets and changing the water daily. Makes good sense.
    I now quaratine my fish for at least 3/4 weeks. So far, so good.
     
  18. reefcraze

    reefcraze

    Joined:
    30 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vereeniging
    Ok with fish it's no problem, just put them in a QT with all the necessary mutie. But what do you do when you get this awesome coral on a rock, The tank it comes from (Murphy's law) is infected with MI or oodinium. What now?
     
  19. Boegie

    Boegie

    Joined:
    27 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,371
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    East London
    Guess what's on my budget for the end of this month?
    QUARANTINE TANK
     
  20. lanzo

    lanzo Sponsor

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    9,396
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Centurion
    But if im not mistaken Vatso...you dont have a sump right?

    Your running on a Berlin system?

    Please help me right on this subject...i might have it wrong
     
  21. vatso

    vatso Thread Starter

    Joined:
    3 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,733
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    JHB
    Hi Guys

    I don't have a sump :(

    My new tank will however have one - I might need to move up my order from Idol in getting the new tank it seems.

    I wonder how many tanks have Itch? seems not being able to see it does not mean it's not there re the post above & where does it all come from?!!!

    Thanks Guys

    I will just feed lots & make sure they are eating! as you can see in the pic they are nice & fat
     
Recent Posts

Loading...
Similar Threads - fish Forum Date
How to nori train a fish Marine Fish Discussions Monday at 13:09
50 % Off All Marine Fish Pet Lovers Emporium 27 Nov 2016
Fish ID ID Needed 23 Nov 2016
Fish Civil Rights Advanced Topics 21 Nov 2016
[wtd] Jumping bean fish Wanted 20 Nov 2016
Deworming fish Quarantine Tanks, sick fish, QT corals 14 Nov 2016
Fish ready to do this weekend Sponsor Specials 12 Nov 2016