Disturbing Reefkeeping Trends

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by Alan, 7 Oct 2011.

  1. Alan

    Alan Admin MASA Contributor

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    I have noticed a few disturbing trends on MASA at the moment and I don’t know if it’s a trend in general or only here on MASA. There are hobbyists keeping bleached anemones in small tanks with inadequate lighting, especially for such species as the Magnifica’s, not only that, they have 2 or 3 different species in less than 200 liters of water. I see comments like “don’t worry I am not new to reefkeeping, I know what I’m doing” Then reading through the thread it becomes clear to the more experienced hobbyists that you are clearly not as experienced as you think or just don’t care about the live stock you are looking after. I see hobbyists trying to keep fish in Reef systems that should only be kept in species specific systems. To top it off they have the attitude of “I don’t expect it to live for long anyway.” Conflict now arises between these reefers and the more experienced hobbyist, where the experienced hobbyist points out the mistake and the less experienced reefer now has a dented ego, so retaliates. This will eventually end up in a forum war because the long term experienced hobbyist is passionate about the animals in our care and understands that it is a privilege to be able to keep these animals, not a right. The inexperienced hobbyist now defends himself with things like MASA is full of negative posts and people are just jealous.
    Guys/gals you may be able to impress friends and family in the short term with your new difficult to do hobby and you may have enough money to throw at your system every time something dies, but you cant buy credibility in this hobby, it still has to be earned in the long term. IMHO I believe that you actually don’t have any bragging rights to any animal in your system if it has been in your care for less than 2yrs.
    A very small percentage of hobbyists are in this hobby for the long haul, speak to your LFS’s and they will tell you that about 95% of people that start the hobby will drop out before the 2yr mark, the 2 main reasons being, its too expensive and you cant keep stuff alive. For the long time hobbyists they realize that both the above are not true. Granted the initial outlay is expensive, but from there on it becomes as expensive or as difficult as you make it. This all depends on the amount of research you are prepared to do and the type of system you want to keep. So please do the research and enjoy the hobby long term. MASA is here essentially to offer advice, whether you take it or not is up to you. The quality of that advice is a educated guess at best and depends on the amount of information you are able to supply, but please don’t think you blazing any trails in the hobby by keeping 10 tangs and a Magnifica in a nano just because no one else seems to do it. Let’s see the results at the 2yr mark. While on this trail blazing stint, please take stock of the amount of animals you are killing along the way. If the death of these animals doesn’t make you feel remorse and keep motivating you to do even more research, you are in the wrong hobby. Again please do the research and become a long term knowledgeable hobbyist, you will be surprised how relatively affordable and relatively second nature the hobby becomes.
     
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  3. belindamotion

    belindamotion Google Master

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    I actually wanted to Post something in these lines myself a few days ago..Thank you for bringing it up...:)
     
  4. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    fantastic post and i fully agree..

    even the most experienced reefers will constantly re evaluate their position wrt livestock and their health and well being.. continiously improve their system to run at peak all for the better of their chosen species kept..

    i myself have removed 2 yelow tangs after i have observed fighting.. We simply must put our livestock first or risk adding more strain to a resorce which is at some stage seemingly going to buckle to activist pressure..

    we are here to learn and share experiences and to an extent a family of people with the same passion..
     
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  5. gMAN

    gMAN with the plan

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    I started this wonderful hobby in August 2009, I still consider myself a noob. Before finding masa, I probably lost about 4 fish (including a beautiful nennie and a mandarin) due to ill advice from a non-sponsor pet store, since then I've lost one during my tank transfer earlier this year. 2 months back I came close to shutting down due to personal reasons but with the encouragement of a few members and the burning desire for me to pursue my hobby and to see my LS thrive I'm still around, reason for this is due to all the reading on MASA and advice by the more seasoned reefer. Big up to MASA
     
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  6. Nur

    Nur Starz

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    i am farely new to the hobby and took great chances in the beginning, i now am coming to the realisation that stability is more important than great looks. and its the advise of people like Dane x2, Les, David, RiaanP and many other pople on this forum and in the LFS that we all learn from as we go along. but at the same time we should not rely on then, we should too read and do some research and in the end you can even teach the "big guys" a thing or two.

    just this morning myself and les who i did not communicate with before 9am this morning ever, had a long string of PM's discussing something that i want to do. he did not just say yes u can have it, instead we discussed what i was trying to achieve, how i was trying to achieve it and with what i would try achieviving it with.

    in the end we all are responsible for our decisions, the guys on this forums speak of experience accumalated over years and research above that. thanks guys for affording the opportunity to learn from you may it be someone in the hobby for 20+ years or 20 days, people learn and pick up things daily, sharing what you have learnt with people is what this Forum/Community is about (BelindaMotion comes to mind).

    again, just my 2c.. :)
     
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  7. prometheus

    prometheus

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    I'd just like to add that being a newbie myself, I have found MASA to be of tremendous benefit. In fact before I do anything in my tank, I always check here first. Well before I even received my tank.

    Even though I have not posted many things, I have been reading on an almost daily basis. (A silent observer if you will)

    So to all of you here at MASA a big thank you.
     
    Last edited: 7 Oct 2011
  8. roderigo

    roderigo

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    Well put Alan I should show my wife this post of yours so she can understand why I'm on the net reading about marines all the time
     
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  9. roderigo

    roderigo

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    And this is why I say this ( Marine is a lifestyle Life itself is the hobby)
     
  10. cptmayhem

    cptmayhem

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    As for me, have a look at the thread I started recently to see how wrong we can get it at times. Even though I have done the research, I was thinking "Nah, don't need all those test kits. PH & Nitrate / Nitrite will be enough. They're too expensive anyway"

    Well, how wrong was I. But you know what, it feels good to know that there are people who have gone through the same thing I'm going through at the moment, and can help a relative newcomer (2 year old tank with 2 clowns that have been with me the whole way, lost some hermits & a bi-color angel & blenny - was GUTTED when that happened, but I knew why)

    But Alan, you'll find that that attitude prevails over the majority of threads / fora that are around at any one time. It's the never ending problem of anonymity that encourages one to become contentious for no reason whatsoever.

    However, there is no excuse for ignorance. In any game, let alone one where lives (small ones, but lives nonetheless) are in our control.
     
  11. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i find hipocrasy is in all facets of live and sometimes i am guilty of the above mentioned crimes.

    I have several fish that i have had for over 3 years, thru many tanks, and i can say there is nothing more rewarding than watching them develop like children.

    infact the 3 fish in my sig pic are all over 2yrs old this month and all were 3-4cm when i got them, now the smallest is 10cm
     
    Last edited: 7 Oct 2011
  12. Tremayn

    Tremayn

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    True... Some guys get carried away when you point out things to them, so I eventually just worry about people who are here to learn and try and help, and of course learn myself...

    You often hear about "politics" and guys say people gang up on you here, but I mean if you are loading up 5 tangs in a nano, there is going to be big noise coming from the guys who care
     
  13. mandarinman

    mandarinman

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    I think that some people hear what they want to. I told a guy two weeks ago to first allow tank to cycle before putting corals in etc. Two days later i hear tank has fish and corals in. So now the first thing i do is ask_do you know masa??? Let me give you the website. Hopefully masa can help focus people. If not then let their pocket pay schoolfees. Itis unfortunate that livestock suffers because of it. The best tip i can give is WATCH Your tank!
     
  14. Tremayn

    Tremayn

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    yeah, some guys dont listen so theres nothing more you can do. You can lead a horse to water ...
     
  15. Broder

    Broder Mudshark

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    Thanks for the refreshing honesty here Dallas. I'd like to see one of all of these posters who has not in the beginning had a gung-ho approach. I'm as guilty as anyone here of killing things in my tank through ignorance. I did feel remorse and learnt how to prevent it in future to an extent. But there will be deaths, premature or not. Let's not be hypocritical and say that by being knowledgeable we're somehow protecting the reefs of the world. When purchasing a fish, coral or invertebrate, we have, more often than not, removed the organism from the habitat where it can breed and multiply. So by that extension we are guilty of killing hundreds or even thousands of the very animals that we so carefully look after in our tanks.

    Those that truely have Mother Nature and Her reefs at heart, don't own tanks. They're out there parking their asses in front of whaling ships. We that have tanks, are end consumers in a huge industry that is depleting the worlds coral reefs. The 5% of reefers that stay in the hobby long enough not to kill the animals left in their care are exactly that..... 5%! These are the 5% that are going to encourage other beginners into the hobby, who are going to kill x amount of creatures. And so the industry is perpetuated.

    So what is the best way of dealing with members on the site that refuse to acknowledge that they need to research the animal they want to keep, before taking ownership of it? Ask them to leave! They're not contributing and the sooner all of their livestock is dead, and they leave the hobby, the better.
     
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  16. magman

    magman

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    I think the guys with real experience just don't keep nemmies, unless they propogated
     
  17. Tridan

    Tridan

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    Not all the blame can be put on to the hobbyist, with products today claiming they can "cure" a tank in hours or days, it leads to the belief that you can stock a tank with out letting nature take its course.

    I am not saying that these products dont work, they do, but in the hands of a inexperienced reefer who does not fully comprehend how everything works inside the glass box, it gives them a sense of security and confidence and allows them to stock the tank with the belief that the chemicals will cure everything that can go wrong.

    A experienced reefer with intimate knowledge of how your captive ecosystem works could easily stock and control a new system, the experienced reefer knows what to look for he knows when there is stress on fish or corals, its there at that point we gauge who knows what he is doing and who does not have a cooking clue.
     
  18. Achilles

    Achilles

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    i agree with the above except where Gobies and Seahorses are concerned you can brag :thumbup: about them after a bout a year and a half as they only live 4-5 years max even shorter for Seahorses and one never knows what age you bought it at? ;)
     
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  19. Alan

    Alan Thread Starter Admin MASA Contributor

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    I seriously think you missed the point of the post.
     
    Last edited: 8 Oct 2011
  20. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    This thread isnt about enviromental issues or our impact on the natural resources.. thats another debate entirley.. its about bad advice being given and people accepting it and leaving it be... so on the level where we have already chosen our path as a reefkeeper and are consumers to the trade..

    So the point here is to give good advice if you are in need, or at a loss for and explination as to whay things are going wrong.. al the rest is extra...;)
     
  21. Broder

    Broder Mudshark

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    I think it's very relevant to know that you're going to have an impact upon the environment from the get go.

    But to comment more directly to your thread, I think that you're giving excellent advice and painting a vivid perspective of the hobby, from the point of view of someone who is vastly knowledgeable on the subject. Personally I only recognise one of the threads alluded to and can't help but wonder how that would have turned out, had as much interest been paid to that as is being shown here.
     
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