Deep sea mining

Discussion in 'Diving, Collecting and Environmental Discussions' started by Keanan, 28 Jan 2011.

  1. Keanan

    Keanan 2time

    Joined:
    16 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Cape Town
    "Three months after the expected date, Papua New Guinea’s government has granted the world’s first deep sea mining license."

    Here's the link to it.
    Deep sea mining to go ahead | News | Practical Fishkeeping

    Just think of all that copper that will be leached into the water. And this is not the only water these :censored: are targeting. "Although the indigenous people of Papua New Guinea have protested against the mining, the lease has been granted for an initial term of 20 years. If it proves successful, Nautilus also has its eye on the territorial waters of Fiji, Tonga, the Solomon Islands and New Zealand, which may also harbour commercially exploitable minerals."
     
    ShaunSwindon likes this.
  2. AdS Guest




    to hide all adverts.
  3. Tobes

    Tobes Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    30 Nov 2007
    Posts:
    9,482
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    A Beautiful place!
    :(
     
  4. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon

    Joined:
    22 Nov 2010
    Posts:
    523
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Johannesburg
    This makes me sick to my stomach and confirms what I created a thread about the other day. Man seems to always find a way of destroying nature for his / her own greed.

    An ancient Apache saying said "only after the last fish has been caught in the sea and only when the last tree has been cut down will Man realise that money cannot be eaten".
     
  5. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    11 May 2008
    Posts:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    JHB

    WOW...... where to even begin !!!!! you have opened up a can of worms here !

    I have thought long and hard before offering this opinion unlike some !

    Mining has a bad name because of its impact on the environment...... Lets put this in perspective......

    Regulation
    Mining is amongst the most regulated of industries in every country in the world, i will conceede that this regulation is less in less developed countries however due to the money involved and taxes involved i can assure you that even remote countries such as Mali or Guinea are highly regulated.

    Corporate Responsibility
    While regulations in 3rd world may be questionable (such as New Guinea) the company in question is listed on both the Toronto and London stock exchanges. Having written more that a couple of documents known as Competent persons reports (CPR) which are documents required by companies trading on these exchanges, i know and understand the detail and external regulation / audit that goes into reports of this nature. Thus while regulations in New Guinea may be questionable, the directors of the company in question would answer to both Canadian and UK standards as well as of course the New Guinea standards.

    The Impact in Perspective
    I dont know a lot about sulphur vents and am sure that some other members can shed some light on this. However brief research has indicated that these systems die and regenerate on other area's as geological environments / conditions change, this results in a natural death and regeneration of the ecosystems around these vents, one website described the vent ecosystems as chaotic. The impact of the proposed mining activity is limited to the mining lease which is 50 square kms, however the actual mining activity will occur in an area a fraction of that, the actual area of estimated mining activity at any given time is 0.112KM. So while the article originally posted presents one side of the argument, there is always another side of the argument. Mining is an easy target which people like to attack, jump on the band wagon ...... yet take a drive to Mpumalanga and compare the impact of mining activities against the Sappi and Mondi activities ...... i assure you look at this objectively and you will see a very different picture emerge...... I worked on a mine there for a number of years..... the mine covered a total of some 3km2 at the time..... but it took us 1 hour of travelling through forestry .... who knows how many humdreds of square km's that covers, yet guess which industry was heavily policed and which one was not?????

    Look at sugarcane as another example or farming in general and the deforestation involved

    Man sits behind his computer, with his running water, his lights on, having just drunk a cold beer and stands on his little soap box and preaches how bad the mining industry is........ swallow some humble pie and at least admit that each and every one of us drives this mining industry..... the Nickel in the laptop, the copper pipes bringing the water to your house, the coal that powers your lights , the silica that made the bottle with the beer in it.... should i go on??? the fluride in your toothpaste ...? come on people !!!!!!! if you want to preach about mining and believe it is the cause of all evil, then go live in a mud hut with NO modern amenities, no running water, no power, no internet, no MASA, and forget the marine tank completely

    I am not saying that ALL mining is a good thing, like any industry there are schelems out there watch some carte blanche this sunday I am sure they will show up some or other schelem in some or other industry, BUT there are responsible miners as well..... What I am saying is that in this day and age when a company has done due diligence and has undergone external review and has satisfied the requirements of a independant country (whos people own the right to the mineral in question) and is given a license to operate under certain conditions then maybe we should voice educated opinions as opposed the bunny hugging useless opinions and claims!

    These guys have not been given carte blance to operate, there are risks associated with this pioneering mining activity, but no amount of modelling will yield the exact result, we will only know in time if this activity can occur with acceptable environmental impacts. If the impacts of the mining activity exceedes the conditions of the licence the licence would be revoked and mining would cease! There are risks involved, the EIA to which the mining license is linked, defines both the risks and mitigation stratergy and is subject to several rounds of audit and public debate.

    There are SO many things out there that are KNOWN to be detrimental to the environment.... lets put the energy to some positive use and fight these things ......

    I find it pathetic that the image of a coral reef which is maybe in 30m of water is used as the headline image of the article when the mining is proposed at a depth of 1600m............

    And just for the record, my professional qualifications are in Geology, Zoology and Environmental Science. So i would like to thing my opinion here is not complete shit and with that i climb off my mining soapbox
     
    viper357 likes this.
  6. Keanan

    Keanan Thread Starter 2time

    Joined:
    16 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Cape Town
    I hear you Neil, mining is not all bad as you said. After all if man hadn't started mining we would still be in the stone age. I totally agree with you that everyone drives the mining business some how, it being that gold piece of jewelry that drives some people nuts, the coal so that we can burn a light etc.

    TBH I did not read any other info on this mining other than that misleading little article above.:blush: And that image of the reef is also misleading seeing that the mining is taking place 1.6km away from the reef.
    But even though the mining is taking place such a distance away from the reef, surely it will have an impact(small or big) on other life in the sea. And yes I don't know what the impact would be but what I do know is that the ocean is very mysterious, as in anything can happen down there.

    As for the can of worms, didn't mean to open it and didn't think I would. Just thought I would make others aware of this too.
     
  7. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    14 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    16,769
    Likes Received:
    582
    Location:
    Sandton
    I agree 100% its bad, but very well put neil, there is always 2 sides to every story, and the media always leave out 1.

    Yes man rapes and pillages the planet and like every species we play a role, ours is to to destroy and make way for the builders. That's what happens when on top of the food chain, and mother nature will always find balance, it might not be as fast as we like but she knows what she is doing.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  8. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon

    Joined:
    22 Nov 2010
    Posts:
    523
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Johannesburg
    NeilH are there not enough mines on land where they have already destroyed the natural enviroment? When last did you hear of an iron ore, nickel, copper, platinum or even coal mine running dry or being exhausted?

    The reason this company is planning on mining is because all the other spots on land have been taken. Add greed to that equation and you have under sea drilling like this instance. Surely after the BP fiasco we would be more conservative regarding drilling underwater. You also state this company will not be given Carte Blanche? People are still counting the costs of the BP spill and how it took over 100 days before a solution plan was set in motion. 100 days of crude oil pumping into an area which survives from fishing? Yet that matter like all the others is simply swept under the carpet and the companies involed play down the incident and are not fined or even closed down due to gross incompetence?

    Your points are valid BUT why not finish mining the mines available and then move on. Once moving on rehabilitating the area damaged from the above mentioned mining?

    This Planet is not that big and when they start destroying natural beauties like the Fiji islands then we need to all realize how little time we have before we run out of natural resources on this Planet and we are left with a lot of dead "live" rock :(
     
    Last edited: 29 Jan 2011
  9. maxisoft

    maxisoft

    Joined:
    25 Oct 2010
    Posts:
    772
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Fourways, Sandton, Jhb
    Hmmmm.... IMHO although unchecked mining is very detrimental to the environment, it probably wouldnt do more damage that say a sunken tanker in the ocean. When one of those go down, the pollution, enviromental damage to reefs, eco-systems, etc which may have taken hundreds of years to establish are gone in the blink of an eye. Yet as Dallas puts it, mother nature has a plan and comes to the party and in time the reef comes back to life with more life than before. My 2 cents.... :)
     
  10. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    14 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    16,769
    Likes Received:
    582
    Location:
    Sandton
    Shaun, neil is an active geologist in mining and many years experience in theory and mining, trust me he knows his stuff.
    Everything we use in from mining, its a fact of life
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  11. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    11 May 2008
    Posts:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    JHB
    As i said before i am not saying all mining is good, but i find ill informed opinions like the above, offensive. I work in this industry daily which i suppose in your opinion makes me a capatalist greedy pig intent on destroying the world..... At this very moment i am working on expanding operations at 3 mines in africa ... which guess what, is driven by the GLOBAL demand for gold ........

    As for mines that have been closed in the last few years, there are many that have closed at the end of their life of mine, i.e. when the olre is exhausted
     
  12. lIghty

    lIghty

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2007
    Posts:
    5,053
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Westville, Durban
    Mmmm Very interesting :whistling:

    Neil, please don't take this as an attack, but can you please explain some of your comments:

    Don't we all have a right to voice our our opinion (Concerns)?

    Unfortunately is is something I truly don't agree with, look at BP. WRT the second part of this statement, is this not already a concerning factor?

    could you elaborate?

    I'm confused, why are timber plantations bad, aren't we saving the rain forrests etc?

    Now isn't this when "money talks"?

    I agree this is totally misleading, but knowing your self how sensitive coral reefs are to Cu, aren't you concerned a bit, knowing there will be contamination introduced into the water, which can be carried for plenty Km?


    I do know that mining is essential to living, but we need to also protect whats left of our planet. Unfortunately mining companies are getting a bad name, but in MY opinion its due to the lack of "ethics" (may not be the best word), just look are RBM who wanted to mine right next door (100m) to the wetlands in St Lucia, and that said it would not affect it at all, I mean who are they kidding?

    Bottom line is its all down to money.
     
  13. lIghty

    lIghty

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2007
    Posts:
    5,053
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Westville, Durban
    Neil, I think you are taking this too personally bud, I think you need to respect others views, even if in your opinion are incorrect.

    Nothing wrong with having a open debate, but lets all relax and try understand what the other person is trying to say, don't mean you have to agree with them. :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: 29 Jan 2011
  14. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    12 Mar 2008
    Posts:
    9,733
    Likes Received:
    785
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Can see this discussion heading the same way as another recent thread...

    Its clear there are two differing opinions on this topic. Its also clear that some of these opinions are based on little more than emotion. The point of discussions is for both sides to state what they believe AND listen to the others have to say. Mining is being discussed. NeilH is well educated, knowledgable and has vast experience in this field. What he says on this subject is more fact than opion. Instead of arguing with him and telling him that his industry (which none of us can live without) is the devil, use this opportunity to learn from him. Besides MASA offering excellent reefing advice, there are tons of members with a wealth of infortmation to share in many differnt fields. Instead of getting over eager, confrontational and even resorting to petty name calling, rather listen to what the experienced people have to say. You also cannot base your entire view of an indusrtry on one negative event (such as the BP disaster). If you dont have any experiene in a field and get into a discussion/debate/aguement with someone who knows what they talking about, you going to have to be a little open minded and realise that what you read in the media isnt always the full story.
     
    viper357 likes this.
  15. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    14 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    16,769
    Likes Received:
    582
    Location:
    Sandton
    This should be moved to the environmental thread, not related to masa :)
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  16. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    14 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    16,769
    Likes Received:
    582
    Location:
    Sandton
    Oops I see it was moved
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  17. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    11 May 2008
    Posts:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    JHB
    bottom line is it ia all down to demand !!

    oh and no offence taken whatsoever man, just my opinion all be it an emotional one ;)
     
  18. lIghty

    lIghty

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2007
    Posts:
    5,053
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Westville, Durban
    Thanks for your reply Neil, I hear where you are coming from :)
     
  19. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon

    Joined:
    22 Nov 2010
    Posts:
    523
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Johannesburg
    So let me get this straight. Pointing out the obvious annoys and insults you :confused1:

    Rivers being polluted because of mining here in Johannesburg insults me Neil. BP Oils drilling an unstable Oil reserve so deep under the ocean and not having a plan B insults me Neil. Being told I am the reason why mining companies rape beautiful natural areas like the Fiji islands and St.Lucia insults me Neil. The fact that I worked for over a decade in the conservation field trying to save the natural wonders of this country and then watching it fall apart because poachers are running freely in our reserves insults me Neil.

    Apparently like you a few things annoy and insult me. Like you I am airing my opinion. If you do not like it then simply dont let my posts upset you please as that is not my intention :thumbup:

    Lets hope that in a few decades toxic waters dont start seeping through the ground and killing all that it touches in these areas as well. Much like what is happening in some Gauteng areas as we speak ;)

    I guess as long as the "experts" live in fancy houses far far far away from where the pollution and toxic sludges left over from mining is bubbling out of the ground everything will be ok right? I guess only the locals who live in these areas will forever be the silent witnesses to the slow demise of this beautiful planet :(

    Then again money is the be all and end all in most peoples lives. To assume anyone would find aternative means to extract minerals or ores from the ground would be too much to ask as long as "profit" is discussed or a part of the discussion.
     
  20. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    11 May 2008
    Posts:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    JHB
    So let me get this straight. Pointing out the obvious annoys and insults you

    No, I said “but i find ill informed opinions like the above, offensive” :tt2: with the emphasis on ILL INFORMED ;), no constructive questions were raised, no forum for debate, others have expressed they are sad and think in their opinion it is a bad thing, I have no issue with that, that is their opinion, but none of them have pointed out “the obvious” and construed opinion as fact…. the original article is heavily bias in many ways, I present an alternative opinion and this is the way the debate turns ……..:confused1: Nowhere did I say that this was a 100% guaranteed safe process, what I repeatedly pointed out was the fact that due diligence seems to have been followed, and that the government of an independent country has satisfied itself that this is a good thing and that IF operated under certain conditions then the environmental impact would be within acceptable limits. Perhaps a valid argument is that any impact is too much impact, but then we need to provide alternatives to the 6 or 8 billion people on this earth. These people drive the market for the metals it is not the mining companies that drive this. Funny thing is that guess where the solutions and alternatives will come from? Evil scientists I reckon ! :thumbup:

    Rivers being polluted because of mining here in Johannesburg insults me Neil.
    Well yes it insults me as well Shaun, I think most people would agree that mining has evolved a lot over the last say 100 years, as has our understanding of the environment, water etc. regulations were very poor if existent at all back in the early 1900’s, the demand for gold and the fact that this was and still is the worlds biggest source of gold and PGE’s drove the industry for more than 100 years and will continue to drive it. Lets throw into the mix a change of legislation, global depression and a dozen other factors and you have a historic situation that will have devastating effects on the JHB water supply. BUT new and current mining operations are held to different conditions of operation than the mines of the past these conditions hold the environment in the highest regard, as with the safety of workers, impact on community, water quality etc etc …… Mines, mining techniques, environmental monitoring etc have evolved to an extent that while I wholeheartedly agree with you that the JHB water situation is a shocker, we cannot judge new operations on what happened 100 years ago.


    BP Oils drilling an unstable Oil reserve so deep under the ocean and not having a plan B insults me Neil.
    :( Personally my opinion is that it is TRAGIC that this terrible accident occurred before the industry has seen some sort of reform…What I will say is this, nothing like this has happened on this scale before, in much the same way as most of us drive to work everyday in a car and the car works, we do not have a plan B or C to get to work …. What they were doing was proven technology why would they have a plan B or C? …… I will not venture any further opinion than that as it is well beyond my field of expertise. My heart sinks when I think about the damage to the ecosystem in this accident….. :(


    Being told I am the reason why mining companies rape beautiful natural areas like the Fiji islands and St.Lucia insults me Neil.
    :whistling: I am sorry that the fact offends you, of course it is your right to be offended I am simply pointing out the fact that it IS demand that drives the mining industry, rich mining companies are a result, not a cause, our and by inclusive definition you simply using your laptop or cell phone to post on MASA, requiring the copper in the unit are driving that demand, and that demand results in the market which is driving among others, this under sea mining. There is no emotion in that statement just simple fact.

    The fact that I worked for over a decade in the conservation field trying to save the natural wonders of this country and then watching it fall apart because poachers are running freely in our reserves insults me Neil.


    :(This upsets me as well !!! I would love to learn of your exploits and what we could learn....:(

    Apparently like you a few things annoy and insult me. Like you I am airing my opinion. If you do not like it then simply dont let my posts upset you please as that is not my intention

    The irony is that we believe in much the same stuff
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Neil H
    At this very moment i am working on expanding operations at 3 mines in africa ... which guess what, is driven by the GLOBAL demand for gold ........

    Lets hope that in a few decades toxic waters dont start seeping through the ground and killing all that it touches in these areas as well. Much like what is happening in some Gauteng areas as we speak

    As I have tried to point out repeatedly the standard mining companies are now held to would surprise you …. South Africa has excellent laws for new ventures, laws far superior to the countries in which we are expanding operations, and we hold ourselves to the highest possible laws which in this case are the south african laws, our shareholders demand this of us and this is paramount to our operations, as it is with most international companies.

    I can look you in the eyes and know I am telling you the truth when I say we don’t leave things like this up to “hope” we plan, monitor, and mediate according to strict conditions…. We don’t hope, we plan
    ;)

    I guess as long as the "experts" live in fancy houses far far far away from where the pollution and toxic sludges left over from mining is bubbling out of the ground everything will be ok right? I guess only the locals who live in these areas will forever be the silent witnesses to the slow demise of this beautiful planet

    I respect your opinion but feel it is based on emotion and not fact

    Then again money is the be all and end all in most peoples lives. To assume anyone would find aternative means to extract minerals or ores from the ground would be too much to ask as long as "profit" is discussed or a part of the discussion.
    Ummmm this is the first time this sort of mining has been tried, if this is not an alternative means to extract minerals I don’t know what is :whistling:….. Maybe just Maybe this is the best cleanest way of mining ever found….we will not know until it goes into production, if it does not work and is clearly an environmental problem ….. I would be the first to join the throng of people calling for the company to be held to its conditions of operation.

    Do you propose someone finds this additional alternative mining method for free? Money makes the world go round boet, lets accept this and work within the model for the better good …… I spose going back to some sort of bartering would also work maybe ? :thumbup:
     
  21. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,142
    Likes Received:
    1,228
    Location:
    Centurion
    Demand and supply.

    Obviously the total cost of a deep sea mine would be so immense, that the prospective value in the copper and gold is enough to justify the effort to mine at 1600m under water.

    Yes the BP oil spill, that was an accident, and that do happen. Doubt if BP would deliberately put a few million dollars worth of offshore drilling platform at risk (if they are just there for the money) or the lives of the men that where lost with this accident.


    and the short article is so one sided.
    But it would be interesting to see the way the returning slurry is real released without causing settlement clouds. How fine particles will this be?
     
Recent Posts

Loading...
Similar Threads - Deep mining Forum Date
[wtd] Ellies or Tedelex inverter with deep cycle battery Wanted 24 Apr 2015
Sebastians' Deep Blue (The return) Supersized Tanks 12 Sep 2014
WHAT?! a Deep Fryer Aquarium! General Discussions and Advice 30 Jun 2014
How does one decide how deep one's sand bed should be? Beginner Discussions 10 Jun 2014
Deep Sea Dive in Sodwana Diving, Collecting and Environmental Discussions 2 Oct 2013
Deep cycle batteries Power cuts 7 Jun 2013
Deep sand bed General Discussions and Advice 19 Jan 2013