Cupramine assistance

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Hi guys!

I'm currently treating my QT tank with new fish for white spot / ich....
I'm using seachem cupramine... the first fish to show signs was my Regal Tang.
I have been at 0.5ppm for about 5 full days now.
I have 2 questions...
1. How long should I treat at 0.5ppm for? bottle says 14 days but I see posts and forums which say 21 to 28 days?
2. After how long using the cupramine treatment should I see improvement on the fish?

Thanks guys!
 
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So there are 5 fish in the QT.
One fish has a few spots.
The rest seem clear.
There are no scratchy/flashy behaviour on them either.
Will monitor the one with the spots... should clear up in the next few days.
 
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as far as I know cupramine will only target the free swimming stage of ws.
 
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Hi,

Does free swimming account for the stage where it falls off the fish as well as the stage where it has reproduced and is now trying to find a fish?

So a quick update:
All fish except one have no spots or signs of ich. Eating well. no flashing and scratching. breathing normal etc.
1 fish (Regal Tang) has spots but is eating, no flashes and scratches and has normal breathing behaviour....

What else could it be except for ICH?
 
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nope if it falls of the fish its a cyst. when they hatch its free swimming
 
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Keep the cupramine at 0.5ppm for 4 weeks, then drop it to 0.25ppm for next 4 weeks, you should all ok. I do this for all my tangs with 100% success.
 

RiaanP

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I helped a bit on an interesting experiment. Although its on freshwater, bacteria is bacteria and the marine results should not differ much.

Cupamine is basically a copper dilution you add to your tank. To kill the whitespot in that little window of opportunity while looking for a host between hatching from a cyst and finding a target host. The copper level should be spot on, else its ineffective. Too strong and you poison your fish, too weak and the whitespot pests is not affected enough. Problem is that rock, sand and even silicone absorbs some of the copper and changes the copper level. And you must be sure that ALL got killed before finding a host. Actually finding a host in our little systems is not that difficult, although in the wild its not that easy, that's the reason why they hatch in such numbers, between 200 and 1000 per cyst.

Anyway, back to the experiment. We all know that lead is like poison when ingested. What does it do to bacteria in a weak lead solution. The stronger the solution, the less growth did show up.

Well, it seems that various bacterial colonies are actually growing. If striving? I cannot say, but there they are. Each different size dot is another species. Same as for the color variations and shapes. This plate got 5 species marked.

Just for the fun, Iron

Nice colors... Also 5 different species of bacteria marked.

Anyway, what about copper, on the same dilution?

NOTHING. NANA. Boggerol.
Bacteria could not grow on the same dilution ratio in a copper solution over same time period.

And we hope that this copper can destroy whitespot.

BUT

what about the beneficial bacteria colony we all depend on in our tanks to keep all things stable. All those bacteria in the liverock that we took like ages to mature? Our DSB that took over 3 months to kick in? The NP-pellets or Orca Cubes? All those bacteria we feed with Vodka / sugar dosing?

We already got a stuffed up tank that's infected with whitespot. Now we kill all out bacteria and affect ammonia, nitrate and phosphate levels making the environment even more stuffed up, even affecting the corals now.

DO NOT USE CUPRAMINE IN YOUR DISPLAY TANK!

If using a quarantine system, note that there is not a bacterial colony you can rely on to help out with nitrogen cycle. Do frequent water changes to keep the water in absolute excellent conditions. Have a copper test kit available to test and set the copper levels correctly after each water change.

Thread on the experiments
https://www.marineaquariumsa.com/threads/copper-and-other-heavy-metals-vs-bacteria.66509/#post-979927

Plus excellent question from @tekkengal
I wonder how copper will affect the bacteria in a fish's gut when they are quarantined in a copper solution? Should they also then not need some sort of probiotic after a copper treatment?
Same as us humans that need bacteria based pills after some medicine. Interfloria after antibiotics?
 
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Thanks for the read Riaan. Very interisting indead. This let me wonder one thing.....My QT tank crashed on me a week or two ago. I had bioballs in the tank helping with breaking down the nitrogen cycle. But one morning I woke up with all my qt fish dead. Yes i did dose cupramine a week before to help with ws. but does this mean the cupramine made my bioballs ineffective causing the crash???
 

RiaanP

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but does this mean the cupramine made my bioballs ineffective causing the crash???
If we have to put money down betting on possible reasons, this is where my money would go.
 

RiaanP

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And due to no nitrogen cycle, already elevated ammonia levels, when one fish died it set off a chain reaction skyrocketing ammonia killing all.

Anyway, as I just answered somebody else:

Your quarantine system
depending on bioload, number of fish, feeding, size of tank etc...
Anything that can push ammonia. As I do believe there is minimal bacteria helping you.
Basically, test your parameters daily, especially ammonia. Do water changes when needed.
 

RiaanP

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Does free swimming account for the stage where it falls off the fish as well
technically - yes. Copper should have an affect on them.

BUT
This window for opportunity is far too short to have any effect at all. Less than 2 hours and they are protected as a cyst.
 
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I thought copper at the correct concentration was an instant kill for ICH.... like a headshot :032:
 

RiaanP

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a bit of copy and paste

Theronts excyst or hatch from the tomont stage consistently between the hours of 2am and 9am (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). The circadian periodicity of theront emergence from the tomont stage does not appear to be related to light, but it is, as yet, unexplained. Theronts quickly begin to lose their ability to infect within hours of hatching from the tomont stage. Theronts have a low infectivity after just 6 – 8 hours (Burgess, 1992). At 7.5 hours after hatching 87% of theronts are still active. By 11.5 hours only 9% are still alive and active. At 15.5 hours from hatching only .34% are viable (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). Theront size varies with the isolate or variant of Cryptocaryon irritans, geographical location, host species and water temperature (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).

A proront is a theront that has contacted a host as attachment begins. Proronts invade the epithelium in as little as five minutes and the wounds can heal over them rapidly (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Proronts then quickly become trophonts and start to feed on the host fish.


Here are some caution Copper levels to be aware of:
  • Dangerous level of copper for shrimps is 0.03 mg per litre.
  • Dangerous level of copper for algae and bacteria is 0.08 mg per litre.
  • Dangerous level of copper for some fish, snails and plants is 0.10 mg per litre.
Note: Copper basically kills parasites by poisoning them more than the fish, so never over dose!

 
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RiaanP

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and I found the answer to @tekkengal question

Bacterial Considerations
Copper is also toxic to the nitrifying bacteria in the biofilter. At 0.3 mg/L Cu2+, copper sulfate inhibits ammonia and nitrite oxidation; therefore, increases in ammonia or nitrite levels in the system should be monitored closely during copper treatments. By contrast, bacteria that can cause disease in fish are much more resistant to copper, with some only inhibited or killed at free copper levels as high as 1.25 mg/L (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988).
 

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