Cupramine™ and stability

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by erle_vaughan, 13 Apr 2011.

  1. erle_vaughan

    erle_vaughan

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    Just got back from 28days at work and....

    This morning after turning my lights on i noticed most my fish happily swimming around covered in spot.... i did the reading and looked at pics and is probably ICH...
    The only fish i ever purchased was a cleaner wrasse, so ironicly the dude i got to keep pests at bay seams to have triggered a smally out break.

    So i have a QT that i built before i left which has been tested to have no leaks that has a built in four part sump that will have floss some balls, some rings and return compartment.
    I would like to start the QT using stability and then dose it using Cupramine™, i will then like to add all my fish to the QT and hopefully they survive.

    I'm not sure how long the fish have been sick, but i think it is safe to presume that my substrate is well infected.

    I will also be putting my star polyps and pink bubble coral in my other newly built frag tank.

    So for my 2 questions:
    Other than those actions, should i just leave my DT running as normal?
    Are there any issues using stability and Cupramine™?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: 13 Apr 2011
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  3. Tony

    Tony

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    Leave the DT. Ich requires a fish host to survive. If you have no fish in your DT then leave it for 28 days to break the cycle. With the cupramine you have to get a copper test so that you dont over or underdose as underdosing will be pointless and overdosing can harm the fish.
     
  4. erle_vaughan

    erle_vaughan Thread Starter

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    cool thanks... I will be getting Cu test kit when i get the Cu...

    Funny thing tho.... maybe i was a bit hasty...maybe not...

    but now they all look cool as cucumbers... not a spot... my threadfin look like this SOME OTHER FISH FROM ANOTHER WEBSITE

    but now nothing.... any chance that they were bubbles... or something else... there is an opaque slime next to my tube anemone... could they have been frolicking in the slime during the night... i will try get pics, and if they look the same tomorrow i will take pics...

    I have only noticed one C.Tang scratching, but they do that in the sea too...

    regardless whether my fish are sick or not, i will be treating all purchaced fish with copper in the QT.
     
  5. williet

    williet Look at the shiny LEDs!!!

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    Hi Earle

    Cupramine to fish is like Chemo to humans.... VERY BAD.
    Cleaner wrasses have been proven never to be involved in removing White spot or keeping it at bay. It deals with other parasites.

    Cupramine has to be done precise and if you miss the copper levels slightly - bye bye fishee

    I use Hypo Salinity in a seperate tank succesfully. Also keep cupramine away from any L/R and corals.

    I am in Toti so if you need help just shout. I have had a lot of experience with the spot and I am happy to share !

    Willie
     
  6. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Copper kills bacteria so it will affect the stability .
     
    magman likes this.
  7. erle_vaughan

    erle_vaughan Thread Starter

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    Thanks Willie... i will check out the situation tomorrow and let you know if there if a problem.
     
  8. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    I noticed this comment in my rep section "rubbish, copper does not affect nitrifying bacteria" relating to the above post. Whoever it was you are misinformed and here are a few more interesting facts about copper and bacteria.


    "Copper is normally used to treat ectoparasitic protozoa, and monogeneans, water molds and flavobacteria." (Edward j Noga Fish Disease Diagnosis and treatment)


    "In newly established aquaria, some nitrifying bacteria may be destroyed
    when copper sulfate is used for the first time". (Bassleer Diseases in marine aquarium fish)


    "Excess levels of copper are toxic to aerobic bacteria (14). It has been suggested that toxicity occurs due to membrane-
    bound copper catalyzing the formation of hydroperoxide free radicals (16). Toxicity levels are determined by examining
    bacterial growth in the presence of various concentrations of an agent on solid or liquid growth medium (5, 9, 13). A lack
    of growth is considered to indicate that the agent has killed cells. However, a lack of growth could also result from
    the cells entering the viable but nonculturable (VBNC) condition


    Concentrations of Copper Thought To Be Toxic to Escherichia coli Can Induce the Viable but Nonculturable Condition




    Now we know, or have been told not to dose copper in tanks containing live rock. Why? If copper does not kill nitrifying bacteria then surely it is then beneficial to does the copper as the copper will bind to the calcium in the LR and then the copper will increase bacterial growth in the LR. What you say!!! Hmmm.... Yes copper is used to stimulate bacteria growth.

    http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_2/issue_1/0033.pdf


    This brings about another point. Medicating with copper is likely to bring on a secondary bacterial infection due to the above. I am sure those that have dosed copper have found a fungus or secondary infection set in soon after dosing.
    You will also note that most aquarium medications state you must not dose two medications simultaneously. This is because the copper and malachite green have adverse affects on the bacteria. In any case copper should NEVER be dosed in the case of fin rot.

    Hope this enlightens you and gives food for thought....
     
  9. erle_vaughan

    erle_vaughan Thread Starter

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    Thanks for putting the facts down @Nemos Janitor...

    I have decide to treat my fish in my hospital tank/QT with heal-all which seams pretty environmentally and fish friendly, i have also raised the water temp in the QT to 27C. As soon as the 4weeks is up for my quarantine time, i will change all the water and let that cycle till i buy new fish again.

    I will keep you all updated on how it works out for me, one of the fish in the QT has ich so i'm pretty interested to see how long it takes for it to come right.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  10. Reef Maniac

    Reef Maniac MASA Contributor

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    NOT a good idea.

    Marine Ich (C. irritans) affects the gills of the fish quite severely. The oxygen carrying capacity of water is reduced with increased temperature. You are now proposing to decrease the O2 content of the water at the very time when the fishes' capacity to breathe/take up oxygen is diminished due to the disease - a double whammy...

    Have you considered hypo-saline treatment? It's free (well, only the cost of a bit of salt...) and probably the most effective way to treat marine white spot.

    Good luck with your fish.

    Hennie
     
  11. erle_vaughan

    erle_vaughan Thread Starter

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    Thanks Hennie...
    i was told to use the heal all most effectively, that i should keep the fish in a dark place and raise the temp to 27/28(speeding up the life-cycle) and then treat the tank daily...

    The affected fish has two spots on his upper lips(after having it very badly on his gill plates)

    Would you then recommend dropping the temp back down to 24/25?

    To be perfectly honest i have heard a whole lot of different stories about this and everyone one has different opinions of which there are hundreds of threads on loads of forums on how to solve... the method i choose is what worked for a friend of mine that i saw work in real life in his DT.


    I did consider hypo, but after seeing how well the heal-all worked and the fact that it is herbal i thought it wouldn't hurt to give it a try.

    Thanks again for the advice, it is always appreciated.
     
  12. williet

    williet Look at the shiny LEDs!!!

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    Earle

    These are the facts.

    I tried healall and it does not work(my dead fish speak volumes on this). Hypo is the only effective treatment.

    Do not try these "herbal" or chemical treatments. Hypo is less stressful and assists the fish in breathing

    Good luck
    Willie
     
  13. Reef Maniac

    Reef Maniac MASA Contributor

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    Yes, this is one of the biggest problems with obtaining info on the 'Net - it can vary greatly :eek: When I'm not sure, I always ask myself: "does it make sense - is it logical?"

    Now, if something has worked for one person (or even for many...), it does not necessarily mean that the treatment was the best (or even that it actually worked - the fish could have recovered on it's own, despite the treatment) - I'm talking in general here, and not referring to the "heal all", which I have never used, and which I know nothing about...

    I do know about treating with hypo, though - and it makes scientific sense to me :biggrin:

    You see, THAT is not logical to me:

    • Firstly, as I stated earlier: raising the water temperature will reduce the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water (this is a well known scientific FACT), whilst at the same time the parasite is attacking the gills of the fish, causing it to have difficulty in breathing.Also, because fish are cold-blooded, their metabolism is directly related to their (actually, the water's) temperature, and a higher metabolism requires more oxygen - it is thus logical that increasing the water temperature will be detrimental to the fish.
    • It is also known (and reported in the scientific and hobby literature) that the optimum temperature for the reproduction of C. irritans is 86°F / 30°C ([FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Noga, E.J. "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment." Ames, IA: Iowa State University Press, 2000.)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT]Raising the temperature will thus accelerate the rate of reproduction of the parasite, resulting in MORE parasites attacking the fish (and with a quicker life cycle, attacking more often...).
    • Thirdly, raising the water temperature to a higher level than normal also increases the blood pH of the fish [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Bartelme, T.D. "Understanding and Controlling Stress in Fish: Part One," Freshwater and Marine Aquarium Magazine, February 2000.[/FONT], which can cause further stress to the fish that is already weakened by the parasite attack, and that again is logically not a good thing.
    • Lastly - the "keep the fish in a dark place" does also not make sense. I don't know how this medicine works, but suspect that it also attacks the free swimming theronts, which "hatch" between 3 to 28 days. Is it thus the intention to keep the fish in the dark for 28 days? How will the fish see to eat during this period?
    I would not drop the temperature below 25°C, but try to keep it between 25° and 26°C, as is normal.

    Hennie
     
  14. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    The raising of temperature has a number of impacts. O2, as Hennie has pointed out is extremely important.

    Another consideration is what the increase in temp is actually doing to the parasite. Is it to because the temp will kill the parasite?
    Is it because it will stunt the parasite reproduction to allow for treatment?
    Is it because it will increase the parasite reproduction to allow for treatment contact time.
    Is it because the medication is only effective for a short time and will be ineffective in treating a slow parasite cycle?
    Could the increase in temp increase the parasite cycle and promote reproduction?

    IME we try and lower the temp slightly to about 23c. this slows the cycle down and allows for the 3 tank system. It also gives the fish a chance to build up its immune system without a continued attack from the unkilled parasites.

    But here again, any white mark on a fish is "White spot or MI" or is it? Well IMHO it is the most misdiagnosed disease by aquariusts. So some will say this works and others will disagree and say another method is better. But they are treating two different pathogens that they think are the same. Hmm.....
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2011
  15. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Dam Hennie when i typed my post you beat me to it stealing my thunder.:tt2:
     
  16. erle_vaughan

    erle_vaughan Thread Starter

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    shot guys...
    :thumbup:

    On the temp and life cycle thing here is what i understood and why it made sense...
    Temp increase will increase the speed of the life-cycle,
    The QT has no place for the parasite to complete its cycle(no substrate) so once it is finished with the fish after about a week and drops off then the cycle is being broken.
    Darkness(not black out) helps the fish relax and swim less lowering stress.
    The heal all i think only really helps with the fish's recovery and not the actual infection. It says it kills the parasites and stuff but i am skeptical. here is a link to the website so you can check it out. Bio-Elite Heal-All

    You guys do sound very convincing :biggrin: so if i ever get a sick fish again i will do the hypo.

    On the hypo treatment... how long does that last?

    Thanks again!
     
  17. erle_vaughan

    erle_vaughan Thread Starter

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    shot guys...
    :thumbup:

    On the temp and life cycle thing here is what i understood and why it made sense...
    Temp increase will increase the speed of the life-cycle,
    The QT has no place for the parasite to complete its cycle(no substrate) so once it is finished with the fish after about a week and drops off then the cycle is being broken.
    Darkness(not black out) helps the fish relax and swim less lowering stress.
    The heal all i think only really helps with the fish's recovery and not the actual infection. It says it kills the parasites and stuff but i am skeptical. here is a link to the website so you can check it out. Bio-Elite Heal-All

    You guys do sound very convincing :biggrin: so if i ever get a sick fish again i will do the hypo.

    On the hypo treatment... how long does that last?

    Thanks again!
     
  18. Yuri

    Yuri

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    There are also the bucket method (I use)
    And the chloroquine
     
  19. Reef Maniac

    Reef Maniac MASA Contributor

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    This is not correct. When the parasites "drop off", they form tomonts, which can attach to any surface, including the side panes and bottom of the tank - they do not need a substrate. Also, they do not drop off all at the same time, and the tomonts do not "hatch" all at the same time either - this is why it is recommended that one should quarantine the fish for at least 28 days. Unfortunately for us (and for our fish) the tomonts are pretty indestructible, and we can only effectively kill the free swimming theronts.

    In my opinion you should treat for at least 28 days. Something to keep in mind: although one can reduce the salinity pretty quickly (hours), on should increase the salinity vary slowly, over a period of days to weeks. Here is a detailed description of the treatment: Aquarium Fish: Applications for Hyposalinity Therapy: The Benefits of Salinity Manipulation for Marine Fish — Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

    Aw shucks, I'm sorry :( but if you want to compete with the old dogs you must be real quick :biggrin: :1: Fortunately, we've both said pretty much the same thing, would have been terribly embarrassing if we contradicted each other :whistling:

    Hennie
     
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