I have a question for the guys who run the CTRC.At the meeting it was said that we should support the MAC accredited shops and the one guy made a statement that we should only support one spiecific shop which is MAC approved.Well I was chatting to a guy over on Reef Central and it turns out that there are NO MAC accredited shops in South Africa.So I thought maybe the guy is a accredited importer,well there are no South African importers accredited to MAC .What are the true facts here guys?
CTRC and MAC accredited shops
- Thread starter Zookeeper
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Kanga
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BizofBiz
MACAttack3
Marine Aquarium Council - Environmental Discussions
Although MAC in theory makes great sense, it seems that in practice they fall far short of what the intended aim is, even Wet Web Media has several pages called MAC attack.
MACAttack3
Marine Aquarium Council - Environmental Discussions
Although MAC in theory makes great sense, it seems that in practice they fall far short of what the intended aim is, even Wet Web Media has several pages called MAC attack.
Last edited:
Marine Aquarium Council
From what i understad the previous guy that ran that show just pissed away the money without actually doing anything. He has now been fired and theres new funding but what REALLY gets me is the double page adds they place in the overseas mags. i mean that must cost several 1000 $ to do. daft if you ask me....
From what i understad the previous guy that ran that show just pissed away the money without actually doing anything. He has now been fired and theres new funding but what REALLY gets me is the double page adds they place in the overseas mags. i mean that must cost several 1000 $ to do. daft if you ask me....
Hi Zookpeer - Yeah - I was there. The only problem I just though about, w.r.t MAC accreditation, is that MAC is actually ONLY American. It's an American accreditation... Not sure if they will really CARE about South African LFS' being accredited or not?
Kanga
Retired Moderator
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/macattack3.htm
Have a look at Bob Fenners response in brackets at the end, very clearly MAC is not what it should be
I don't think the complete time spent there was a waste. BUT, the thing about the MAC accreditation, is that it's a VERY novel concept - BUT - there was no follow-through. Currently, there are VERY few organisations really governing the import/export business of marine live stock - ALL OVER THE WORLD....
I think personally that one should try and find a LFS that has "reported" the least deaths from a specific supplier - and perhaps stick with them on purchases....
I think personally that one should try and find a LFS that has "reported" the least deaths from a specific supplier - and perhaps stick with them on purchases....
The thing is why misrepresent the situation and try to get us to support the one shop that the guy mentioned as selling MAC approved livestock.I went to have a look at the place on Saterday and it`s no better than the rest of the Cape Town shops.High lights included dead fish in the tanks,Powderblue with white spot as well as a Morish Idol for sale.A big disapointment thats for sure.
Well - many thanks for scouting this for us Zookeeper. Perhaps you can PM me the shop's name?
I personally think that even IF there were shops that WAS INDEED MAC (or any other accreditation for that matter), their standards they kept would be up to the individual store owner/manager to keep the BEST quality stock, at the absolute best way.....
So - I still think that LFS' have to be measured and treated, EACH ON THEIR OWN MERIT....
I personally think that even IF there were shops that WAS INDEED MAC (or any other accreditation for that matter), their standards they kept would be up to the individual store owner/manager to keep the BEST quality stock, at the absolute best way.....
So - I still think that LFS' have to be measured and treated, EACH ON THEIR OWN MERIT....
Yeah - I have respect for what Muz is trying to accomplish. And he knows that there might/will be some crap to work out. It will take a LOT of hard work, effort and patience. BUT, in the end - if he persists - he would have done marine-keeping the the Cape, and in SA, a HUGE HUGE favor!
Strange, I dont recall anyone at the meeting saying we should support one shop only (currently the ctrc is not supporting any shops) and that the shop is MAC approved. I do recall it mentioned that the shop sells mac approved fish. In otherword the fish are imported from a MAC certified supplier. This is at least a step in the right direction as you'll know the fish were caught without the use of cyanide and that the holding facilities are kept at high standards. Currently it would be unrealistic to expect shops or importers in this country to get themselves mac certified. The market is too small and it's simple too expensive for us.
Thanks for the explanation and clarification Regal.
I hope you don't mind me re-iterating:
I personally think that even IF there were shops that WAS INDEED MAC (or any other accreditation for that matter), their standards they kept would be up to the individual store owner/manager to keep the BEST quality stock, at the absolute best way.....
So - I still think that LFS' have to be measured and treated, EACH ON THEIR OWN MERIT....
I hope you don't mind me re-iterating:
I personally think that even IF there were shops that WAS INDEED MAC (or any other accreditation for that matter), their standards they kept would be up to the individual store owner/manager to keep the BEST quality stock, at the absolute best way.....
So - I still think that LFS' have to be measured and treated, EACH ON THEIR OWN MERIT....
I do believe the principles behind MAC would be sound and good for the hobby as a whole but unfortunately, it sounds like, as with so many things in life the people running it have lost sight of these principles for the sake of self enrichment.
By the sounds of things this has collapsed in the USA and a MAC certification is not worth the piece of paper it is written on and until something more creditable raises its head i would judge the LFS on its own merits just like Jacques has suggested.
By the sounds of things this has collapsed in the USA and a MAC certification is not worth the piece of paper it is written on and until something more creditable raises its head i would judge the LFS on its own merits just like Jacques has suggested.
Yeah, sure, Alan. Good point. I would be inclined to support a LFS that routinely quarantined, for example.
I would be really impressed with a LFS that freshwater and methylene blue dipped new arrivals. Costs nothing but effort and definitely saves fish.
What would really, really impress me is salinity, ammonia, nitrate etc. charts on the side of the tanks. Perhaps a waterchange schedule? That would impress me an awful lot.
I would be really impressed with a LFS that freshwater and methylene blue dipped new arrivals. Costs nothing but effort and definitely saves fish.
What would really, really impress me is salinity, ammonia, nitrate etc. charts on the side of the tanks. Perhaps a waterchange schedule? That would impress me an awful lot.
Nice ball/royal python btw, zookeeper. Back in my herp days I desperately wanted one.
Thanks for your input Rob. I think that these points you mentioned, are EXACTLY the criteria that we should be using to scrutinize LFS. I have asked many of those questions, at many a LFS - but never received a satisfactory answer.
I think the whole point of the MAC accreditation thing, is to have the LFS's adhere to certain standards. Not that we really require a "MAC accreditation" to try and enforce such standards.
If/and as soon as the CTRC has the support of the government, we can enforce such criteria ourselves, but visiting the LFS's, reporting non-compliance, and have this reported to the applicable government departments....
In such a way, we (the reefers, and belonging to the CTRC) could be "policing" this ourselves.....
I think the whole point of the MAC accreditation thing, is to have the LFS's adhere to certain standards. Not that we really require a "MAC accreditation" to try and enforce such standards.
If/and as soon as the CTRC has the support of the government, we can enforce such criteria ourselves, but visiting the LFS's, reporting non-compliance, and have this reported to the applicable government departments....
In such a way, we (the reefers, and belonging to the CTRC) could be "policing" this ourselves.....
Hello ReefGogga - a VERY WARM WELCOME TO MASA! Thanks for your input! That is EXACTLY what we want! For Local Fish Stores!
The issue, I think, is the amount of life stock that dies that comes into our LFS's. This includes fish dying because of handling, not being acclimatized correctly, perhaps incompatible fish that is imported (that should NEVER end up in a marine tank, due to their mortality rates, etc, and the same goes for corals).....
BUT - what we can do as reefers, is report any LFS at our local Reefkeeping Clubs, or perhaps even here at MASA, that we find that's not doing their bit for conservation. And this includes all of the decent stuff that we should be doing to keep the lives we keep, alive.
Ie. Good husbandry practices, water changes, ie. keeping nemmie's under the correct lighting and in the correct flow, good practices when it comes to corals, etc. etc etc
The issue, I think, is the amount of life stock that dies that comes into our LFS's. This includes fish dying because of handling, not being acclimatized correctly, perhaps incompatible fish that is imported (that should NEVER end up in a marine tank, due to their mortality rates, etc, and the same goes for corals).....
BUT - what we can do as reefers, is report any LFS at our local Reefkeeping Clubs, or perhaps even here at MASA, that we find that's not doing their bit for conservation. And this includes all of the decent stuff that we should be doing to keep the lives we keep, alive.
Ie. Good husbandry practices, water changes, ie. keeping nemmie's under the correct lighting and in the correct flow, good practices when it comes to corals, etc. etc etc
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Hi guys
Sorry I just saw this thread now, and I just skimmed through it so if I missed the point just shout. I have a bit of time so let me ramble a bit..
As Regal pointed out the CTRC does not support or has not given accreditation to any LFS yet as we are still working on the best way for this to happen in a sustainable and positive way. In a similar way we will not support a supplier who sells his goods in a LFS that is nothing short of a killing field. As we all know the wheels turn, although slow at times, they turn slow as we do this in the spare time we make available. The idea behind CTRC accreditation is simple really, we would like to investigate all aspects of the trade and figure out which is the most widly used and effective methods of landing and selling fish so that the end users get a healthy fish or invert at a good price we will also take into account issues like electrical, hygene, acclimitisation procedure, species kept, etc etc... and in this regard I am very sorry for all those who did not attend IMACSA as so many of these topics were discussed in length with Anthony Calfo who has a massive amount of experience around the world, what was interesting was to gain his perspective on world trends, what works and what does not work, how a specific country tried it and failed or was sucssessful. Sometimes I get all vocal about something but when I spoke to Mr Calfo about some of my ideas I was not surprised to find that with a lot of insight into what is really happening in the trade.. we have , in many aspects, got it all wrong, and in some aspects, we have it nailed down ! This is not to say that we can and should enforce offshore methodologies here, but it sure is a good start to make sure we are at least going in the right direction.. should IMACSA include where SA stands by the standards of the rest of the world? I hope so !
I did hear at IMACSA that there is one LFS in JHB currently in the process of applying or working towards MAC accreditation ( I may have been mis informed and I did not clarify or confirm this ) but at the very least they buy from a wholesaler off shore that Anthony Calfo proclaimed as one of the best in the world.. indeed visiting the shop in JHB was a pleasure. it seems to be a very long and very expensive process. I hear that it can cost close on 600K, again may have been misinformed.
Just remember one of the main motivating factors surrounding the formalisation of the CTRC besides education and conservation was the frustration in seeing some LFS supply really poor enviroments for fish.. one of our aims is to formalise a CTRC accreditation process in consultation with importers, wholesalers and retailers. We are already speaking to one or 2 shops to become accredited, or at least start working towards accreditation.. this will hopefully get the slack retailers to wake up and realise that CTRC members will not support them.. onto my next point.. the CTRC has 18 members, not exactly a membership that can effect change just yet.. but when we have 100 members with 100's of guests we suddenly have a voice ,and boycotting a shop like the one Zookeeper visited can have a very defined result.
At IMACSA I had the opportunity for 4 days to speak to wholesalers and retailers as well as guys like us and we all have a different set of problems, the goal is to find a middle ground where the retailer can still make a living, support IMACSA events and still grow his business, again at IMACSA this was discussed all the time.. how can we, in our current economic climate, regulate the LFS in such a way that he can survive, and there are many ways to do this.. 'collaboration' was a word Anthony Calfo used a lot.. In JHB in particular I was quite impressed with the efforts of many retailers to give good service at a good price and good quality. I found the same in DBN when I visited there. Some other interesting conversations included their conferences in the US, how they were founded, what makes some successful and some not, the same thing around local clubs. How do they structure it, how do they fund it, what mistakes really stand out.. and trust me, so far we are going along quite well, hats off to Carl and the team in JHB for IMACSA 08 for the opportunity to get the opportunity to farm the information, there is a lot of work to be done but for all the problems IMACSA has experienced in the last 2 that has come and gone, overall by world standards we are doing well. I know some may say,'we are not the US, or Singapore or Germany, we are SA so stop comparing' well, maybe a valid comment but it is sure in our best interest to at least educate ourselves on how other world markets have fared while expanding a market like we are trying to do.
With IMACSA coming to CT next year, I just hope and pray that what happened in JHB does not happen to us, where the invited guests snap away at one LFS's livestock and corals because they find the 'diseases interesting'. I can assure you that as IMACSA 09 rolls closer these issues will be addressed with more vigour in consultation from the LFS owners, the sooner they realise we are here to help their businesses and expand the hobby the easier it will be for the CTRC committee. I hope that through positive support of the CTRC and it's committee the club can achieve these things with time, to leave a meeting and the following week expect everything to be perfect is not gonna happen, neither is sitting back and being negative or loud mouth.. if guys in this industry want change, it will happen, but not by just sitting behind a PC and saying how shit it is. It takes more communication, collaboration and effort than you realise. At least for those who want to help and make a change, the opportunity is now here.. join the CTRC, attend the meetings and make a difference.
Muz
Sorry I just saw this thread now, and I just skimmed through it so if I missed the point just shout. I have a bit of time so let me ramble a bit..
As Regal pointed out the CTRC does not support or has not given accreditation to any LFS yet as we are still working on the best way for this to happen in a sustainable and positive way. In a similar way we will not support a supplier who sells his goods in a LFS that is nothing short of a killing field. As we all know the wheels turn, although slow at times, they turn slow as we do this in the spare time we make available. The idea behind CTRC accreditation is simple really, we would like to investigate all aspects of the trade and figure out which is the most widly used and effective methods of landing and selling fish so that the end users get a healthy fish or invert at a good price we will also take into account issues like electrical, hygene, acclimitisation procedure, species kept, etc etc... and in this regard I am very sorry for all those who did not attend IMACSA as so many of these topics were discussed in length with Anthony Calfo who has a massive amount of experience around the world, what was interesting was to gain his perspective on world trends, what works and what does not work, how a specific country tried it and failed or was sucssessful. Sometimes I get all vocal about something but when I spoke to Mr Calfo about some of my ideas I was not surprised to find that with a lot of insight into what is really happening in the trade.. we have , in many aspects, got it all wrong, and in some aspects, we have it nailed down ! This is not to say that we can and should enforce offshore methodologies here, but it sure is a good start to make sure we are at least going in the right direction.. should IMACSA include where SA stands by the standards of the rest of the world? I hope so !
I did hear at IMACSA that there is one LFS in JHB currently in the process of applying or working towards MAC accreditation ( I may have been mis informed and I did not clarify or confirm this ) but at the very least they buy from a wholesaler off shore that Anthony Calfo proclaimed as one of the best in the world.. indeed visiting the shop in JHB was a pleasure. it seems to be a very long and very expensive process. I hear that it can cost close on 600K, again may have been misinformed.
Just remember one of the main motivating factors surrounding the formalisation of the CTRC besides education and conservation was the frustration in seeing some LFS supply really poor enviroments for fish.. one of our aims is to formalise a CTRC accreditation process in consultation with importers, wholesalers and retailers. We are already speaking to one or 2 shops to become accredited, or at least start working towards accreditation.. this will hopefully get the slack retailers to wake up and realise that CTRC members will not support them.. onto my next point.. the CTRC has 18 members, not exactly a membership that can effect change just yet.. but when we have 100 members with 100's of guests we suddenly have a voice ,and boycotting a shop like the one Zookeeper visited can have a very defined result.
At IMACSA I had the opportunity for 4 days to speak to wholesalers and retailers as well as guys like us and we all have a different set of problems, the goal is to find a middle ground where the retailer can still make a living, support IMACSA events and still grow his business, again at IMACSA this was discussed all the time.. how can we, in our current economic climate, regulate the LFS in such a way that he can survive, and there are many ways to do this.. 'collaboration' was a word Anthony Calfo used a lot.. In JHB in particular I was quite impressed with the efforts of many retailers to give good service at a good price and good quality. I found the same in DBN when I visited there. Some other interesting conversations included their conferences in the US, how they were founded, what makes some successful and some not, the same thing around local clubs. How do they structure it, how do they fund it, what mistakes really stand out.. and trust me, so far we are going along quite well, hats off to Carl and the team in JHB for IMACSA 08 for the opportunity to get the opportunity to farm the information, there is a lot of work to be done but for all the problems IMACSA has experienced in the last 2 that has come and gone, overall by world standards we are doing well. I know some may say,'we are not the US, or Singapore or Germany, we are SA so stop comparing' well, maybe a valid comment but it is sure in our best interest to at least educate ourselves on how other world markets have fared while expanding a market like we are trying to do.
With IMACSA coming to CT next year, I just hope and pray that what happened in JHB does not happen to us, where the invited guests snap away at one LFS's livestock and corals because they find the 'diseases interesting'. I can assure you that as IMACSA 09 rolls closer these issues will be addressed with more vigour in consultation from the LFS owners, the sooner they realise we are here to help their businesses and expand the hobby the easier it will be for the CTRC committee. I hope that through positive support of the CTRC and it's committee the club can achieve these things with time, to leave a meeting and the following week expect everything to be perfect is not gonna happen, neither is sitting back and being negative or loud mouth.. if guys in this industry want change, it will happen, but not by just sitting behind a PC and saying how shit it is. It takes more communication, collaboration and effort than you realise. At least for those who want to help and make a change, the opportunity is now here.. join the CTRC, attend the meetings and make a difference.
Muz
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