Bloomin' bleedin' blerrie test kits!

Discussion in 'Water Parameters and Additives' started by RocketRooster, 22 Feb 2013.

  1. RocketRooster

    RocketRooster

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    I use Salifert kits for all my tests. I now read an article by ol' Randy which talks about "fugitive endpoints" when doing titration-type tests (the kind where you add drops until the colour change, and then read the result off a chart).

    Specifically, he advises that you should stop adding drops the moment you observe a colour change. Even if the colour reverts back the way it was.

    The bloody salifert kits' english Instructions don't mention this!!! Die Hollandaise instrukties ist meer duidelijk in sovaar hierdie geval. Or some shit. No parle voux Francais pour merde, either! :68:

    BUT. Even though I know this now, this still doesn't solve the problem. The magnesium kit, I think it is, will impart a blue colour to the newly added drop immediately, which then disappears. At some point as you add drops, the solution turns blue and then pink again. And eventually it remains blue.

    So now wobble you tea eff?!? Which one?

    Grrrrrr.
     
    Last edited: 22 Feb 2013
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  3. belindamotion

    belindamotion Google Master

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    I use Salifert also and yes..I also "drop" till the colour changes permanently...even after what you posted, I would probably still test the way I always do and forget about "fugitive endpoints"... we have been doing it for years with apparently no ill-effects..if they can prove that our way is now "scientifically proven" to shorten the life span of our LS..I'll definately consider the "fugitive endpoint" and change the way I test...
     
  4. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    He means a colour change that reverts back after the drop youve added has been swirled around.
    Scientifically he is correct about the fugitive end point, but im sure its only going to make a difference when doing experiments that need to 100% accurate and all other variable have been eliminated.
    When using the test kit, note how many more drops you need to add to get it to stop reverting back...its like one or two so isnt going to make a huge difference. Whats more important is that you keep our parmeters and measuring techniques consistent.
     
  5. RocketRooster

    RocketRooster Thread Starter

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    Well how about this scenario: Let's say for example you got low calcium or snowstorms or whatever. Your magnesium checks out fine (when it's actually much lower than you think). So now you're chasing your tail trying to boost a param that is dependent on another (which isn't reported correctly).
     
  6. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Go and see how large the difference is between full colour change and when it first starts reverting back, youll see its nothing to be worried about.
     
  7. RocketRooster

    RocketRooster Thread Starter

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    You betcha, I'm gonna do just that.

    The turd in the well is that the Dutch instructions do mention it (but not the Engrish). So now... is it important or not according to Salifert? Or has it got to do with sea level? :whistling:
     
  8. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Which salifert kit? I just checked mine and it is mentioned in english.
     
  9. RocketRooster

    RocketRooster Thread Starter

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    I'll check when I get home. It's one of them. I know one of them mentions "when the first colour change is observed", but I consider that to be rather ambiguous.

    P.S While I'm on a Salifert-bashing mission: their website is super kak! No faq nor an email address or buggrawl. Somebody over there should stop sniffing tulips and pull finger!
     
    Last edited: 22 Feb 2013
  10. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    Don't chase precise numbers, you'll go off your head. :p They are hobbyists test kits, not lab grade equipment, a reading of "about xx" is perfectly fine, if you want more precise readings you'll have to take a 2nd bond and buy some upper class kits. :p
     
  11. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    gotta agree with @viper357 chasing numbers will take the fun out of the hobby as you will only be focused on the numbers
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  12. lifestyle pets

    lifestyle pets

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    What viper said. None of the hobbyist equipment is that precise. But they are accurate enough for the job at hand. Dont stress to much about the differance of 9 or 10 drops.
     
  13. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    perhaps just worry about the way you do the test, ie do it the same everytime ;)
     
  14. RocketRooster

    RocketRooster Thread Starter

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    But you see, that's exactly the thing! Why exascerbate the problem of an already dubious accuracy by compounding it with incorrect methodology? That should be EXACTLY why you should try and do your test kit as accurately as possible.

    Sure... good enough is probably good enough. I do tend to obsess over details.

    But then again... is my TS2 "good enough"? Are my reeftek t5's "good enough"? Probably not, but there's a difference. For me, nothing is good enough if it can be improved by a little bit of diligence.

    Salifert's tests kit instructions are probably "good enough". I don't think so though. Since all it requires is a bit of diligence and a phone call across the 'Channel for someone who can sprachen sie Ingils!!!
     
  15. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    give @Moolis a call, he has a lab grade test kit :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  16. Visser

    Visser MASA Contributor

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    Wow, you havent even got a full reef tank and your this worried about parameter accuracy?:eek:?? @RocketRooster, the salifert test kits that use titration is the calcium, alk & magnesium...
    If you are so worried about the extra 2% that it might show too little, just dose 2% more of whatever you are testing! (Ps, you probably wouldnt even be able to measure the extra 2% with your dosing regeme)
    The only reefs where correct parameters are required is ultra low nutrient sps systems where slight changes can have an impact on coral health, & not even then would you need te test that accurate, & by the looks of your tank, you still have a while before you will be at full blown sps reef...
    So, like everyone said, its much more important to pick a number & keep your parameter as stable & close to that number as you can, than worrying about the test kits accuracy...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  17. RocketRooster

    RocketRooster Thread Starter

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    The accuracy of the chemical reaction is not what I'm on about- it's the slipshod instructions.

    I object m'lud!
     
  18. Nemeziz_za

    Nemeziz_za

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    LOL Rocket, you are someone I want to meet. Your posts have me entertained almost every time!

    I happen to share your frustration, whilst I do get the insightful comments from the old sea dogs here it still drives me nuts.

    Having kept a number of reef tanks over the years and experiencing what you described. I was shocked to find that after a 7 year break almost nothing has changed in this area. Everything else in the hobby advanced radically in my absence.

    I honestly do not understand how there could be near to ZERO advancement in over a decade.

    Needless to say, I did toss the saliferts and embraced the Red Sea kits. The process is the same but I like the feel of the equipment and the little gadgets :)

    But watch a tube video on how to do the test as the instructions suck with this brand too!

    I've adopted what's been recommended in a few posts. Adhere to the closest process laid out in the instruction. Perform this process diligently and consistently in your own way it will provide consistent data leading to the same results in parameters, consistent and stable.

    There is an ABSOLUTE gap in the market here. I've even considered pooling money amongst a few reefers to purchase digital testing gear. It's prohibitively expensive though.

    Keep up the posting Rocket ;)
     
  19. HenkHugo

    HenkHugo

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    Nemeziz - just send you water to a water lab... its cheap and fast and its 100% correct
     
  20. Nemeziz_za

    Nemeziz_za

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    Henk, could you PM me contact details?
     
  21. HenkHugo

    HenkHugo

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    Will do so alittle later. Getting ready to go flying
     
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