Are we doing the right thing?

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by ShaunSwindon, 18 Jan 2011.

  1. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon

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    Firstly let me begin by saying that this thread is by no means meant to upset or insult anyone who collects marine animals as I love my little Sun Sun tank and all the remaining critters inside it :whistling:

    Anyways the reason for this post is I am very involved in the anti-Rhino poaching campaign which is currently being lead by John Robbie from 702 Talk Radio. Long story short as South Africans we are appalled each time we hear about a Rhino being shot for its horn right :032:

    This is the worst kind of poaching we have experienced in South Africa for a long time. My point is if we get upset about poaching here in South Africa then why do we not get upset when new "shipments" of "stock" arrive at our local fish stores :001_huh:

    What I am trying to say is this "stock" which comes from overseas, are they bred there or are they removed out of their natural habitats? If they are being removed from their natural habitats and kept alive to be sold in South Africa and other countries then surely that is a form of poaching? By removing them we are creating a smaller gene pool as most of these animals will never see another one of its kind or be able to breed and repopulate our oceans? Are we aiding a form of poaching in either Indonesia or Kenya as examples.

    Using live rock as an example and when I bought mine for my tank I noticed how the pieces were basically chiseled away from larger pieces. What do the rock formations look like where they are from? How many more years can this industry continue if we are importing such large quantities of other countries natural resources? Do the local population in those countries bemoan the fact that we as marine keepers in foreign countries are stealing their natural resources like the Chinese are stealing our Rhino horns? Another example would be the 1500 African Grey parrots which died on route from Durban to Johannesburg. These parrots were originally from the Democratic Republic of the Congo and were removed as babies from their natural habitat. Does anyone else think this might eventually be the death of the pet industry if we continue raping indigenous populations in order to establish either breeding colonies here in South Africa or merely sell the "stock" to the avid pet keeper?

    Again please do not think I am trying to make anyone else feel bad. This is my own personal opinion and my own personal dilemma which I need to work through. I merely wanted you guys to share your opinions please :blush:
     
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  3. Anemone

    Anemone

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    Buy captive bred, or propagated.
     
  4. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon Thread Starter

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    How can we be sure if the "stock" is bred in captivity or in the wild :confused1:

    I cannot even get a straight answer from two local fish stores on the upkeep of my marine tank I bought from them never mind if their stock is local or not. I understand your point but from the answers I have received from the majority of pet stores I have been in the majority of their "stock" is imported. Now tell me why would they import their "captive bred" "stock"? I suspect we as "innocent" buyers don't know half of the story unfortunately :(

    Thanks for the reply though buddy :)
     
  5. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i agree with you, and i am involved in reef conversation etc
    buy captive and support movements like MOFIB, and MBI

    aslong its regulated, the old makes way for the new and most capture places are being regulated and educated.
     
  6. Dane

    Dane

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    A good query to bring up. I have tried, as much as possibly to not purchase wild collected livestock/rock etc. In fact, only a few zoas in my tank are from shops - and these are usually the stuff that got bumped off from larger imported colonies. Even my clownfish are captive bred.

    Dont' forget, that buying/swapping/trading frags from your fellow reefers is a form of aquaculture. Yes, original colonies have to come from somewhere. But if X imports a colony, then 10 frags are passed on, then each of those frags grow up and are in turn fragged... you get the idea.

    For fish, its a bit different. Needless to say if you are going to buy wild caught fish, the least one should do is purchase MAC approved livestock. Also, catching fish locally (and I'm not saying I agree with this practice) is far lower impact than importing livestock. Whereas on imports, many fish die for each fish that succesfully makes it to the LFS. However, when catching locally, the catcher MUST REALISE that as soon as you've added it to a tank and exposed it to new pathogens, diseases etc it CANNOT be released back into the ocean.
     
  7. TheWaterboy

    TheWaterboy Sponsor

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    good valid points made there, but lets be realistic here.......there are only id say 3 or 4% of the spectrum of aquarium trade specimens that are succesfully bred.
    its just not gonna happen any time soon guys......sad but true......most guys want yellow tangs , flame angels , emporers etc etc........
    i agree ....supporting organisations that do captive breeding will help em further develop there cause....but it will never stop the collecting of specimens unless it becomes law...in that case a huge portion of our fellow reefers wont be as active any more.

    with corals its a differant story.......and im all for captive bred corals and clams;)


    bottom line is .....at the end of the day....yip....we should all be feeling a little bit guilty now.......but hey i also felt guilty taking mydog away from its mom when he was a pup.......and hay.....i was over it 5 minutes later:tt2:



    keep up the good work with them bastard rhino poachers dude:yeahdude:
     
  8. Anemone

    Anemone

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    I agree, there are limits. But one can have a tank with captive bred fish, propagated corals, anemones, man made LR, captive bred shrimp, snails, etc.
     
  9. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon Thread Starter

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    Problem is there are so many more dogs in the World than some of the Fish and corals you find left in our polluted and badly treated oceans :(
     
  10. Dane

    Dane

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    This is an important point to me. I don't think most shop keepers are concealing wild caught species as captive bred. But probably because there isnt strong pressure from consumers. I think the captive bred/aquaculture industry should have some form of branding, verification and approval.
     
  11. Anemone

    Anemone

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    Keep in mind price. There are a lot of costs involved with captive bred. It's much cheaper to take from the ocean. Captive bred can be 3 - 5 times (or more) the cost of wild caught. I myself will not purchase a fish that can be easily bred in captivity. I wouldn't hesitate to pay 10 times more for captive bred. Unfortunately not everyone is willing to pay. In turn, not everyone is willing to waste their time and money into raising fry if nobody is willing to pay.
     
  12. SIMS

    SIMS

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    perhaps in the US captive is better but here in SA most petshops only look at one thing - PRICE!
     
  13. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i think we should actively support any aquaculture, for a number of reasons, one point that people tend to forget in the emotion of the environmental side of things (and anyone who knows me personally will know how passionate i am about animals in general), is the simple fact that aquarium bred species be they corals or fish or inverts, are acclimated to aquarium conditions, food, light, flow, temps etc do i need to go on?,

    simply put buy a heathy aquacultured specimen and put it in the average tank with propper filtration and in my humble opinion 99% of the time these will do far better than wild caught equivilants.....

    Another side of this coin is responsibility, as the end user we have an obligation to provide the best conditions for the animals in our care. you would not keep a husky locked up in a 1 bedroom flat so dont keep a tang in a nano. fullstop.

    be responsible end consumers!
     
  14. TheWaterboy

    TheWaterboy Sponsor

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    crap......do you know how big that ocean is dude........lol......
    i get your point though......but trust me .....there is a shit load of coral out there.
    and enough aquarium specimens......for now:(
     
  15. TheWaterboy

    TheWaterboy Sponsor

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    very true.......
    hey sims....try get the tracking number from the wife....still did not recieve anything
     
  16. SIMS

    SIMS

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    grrrrr... I give up!
     
  17. Dane

    Dane

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    These sort of speculative statements are really disturbing.

    We have scientific evidence that shows us what a precarious state our coral reefs are. We have seen first hand what the impacts of re-released aquarium species can do. I am not going to harp on about lionfish and bangai cardinals becaues we all KNOW these case studies. The plenty o' fish in the sea argument is long gone. The tragedy of the commons
    has been seen true time and time again.

    I'm not trying to be doom and gloom about everything. What I am saying is that if this hobby wants to continue without destroying itself, we need to innovate, better our culture facilites and move steadily away from wild caught livestock. And importantly, all reefers need to take a bit more responsibility, increase their awareness and realise the vast chain that leads up to that fish or coral sitting in the LFS.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2011
  18. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon Thread Starter

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    Like you said for now. In my experience most conservation work is not done for results which will improve wild animal numbers for today but rather for the benefit of our kids future. Just imagine the number of reefers out there now and how those numbers will double in 5 years time and then double again in the next 5 years. Eventually our oceans will be over fished and over polluted. Its simple logic really :(

    Listen my point like I said is not to upset anyone. This was merely a question which has been bothering me lately. When I stare into my sail fin tangs eyes I wonder how me keeping him caged in a small tank will affect the gene pool for this species. Obviously not a lot but if you remove a million sail fin tangs over a period of 10 years from their natural habitat I am sure that will eventually have an affect :blush:

    Does anyone in South Africa know of a LFS which stocks captive bred animals?
     
  19. TheWaterboy

    TheWaterboy Sponsor

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    i hope you not taking my posts in the wrong light dude.......i hear waht you saying 100% however

    it may disturb you.......or be disturbing what i said above..... but there are also reefs out there .....huge reefs, lots of them untouched that are so overpopulated you will not believe it when you see it......i have the names of a few documentries that just may blow your mind.....they tell 2 sides of the story....the good.....overpopulated reefs....and the bad.......plundered reefs.......there are places like kingman reef that are 3000 miles away from the nearest coast with so much fish and clams, the clams go on forever and are growing ontop each other etc etc
    also take note that conservation does take place around the world with rebuilding of reefs by taking what corals and frags that are still alive in a area that has been damaged.....taking them elsewhere, growing them out and then putting them back.
    there are also places where schools of tangs absolutley demolish coral reefs.

    you would have a bigger fight on your hands taking on the crown thorns starfish or the tourist industry than to take on the hobby...... as the damage done by them is far greater than that by us

    its a very good question....and a awesome thread!
    no one is upset here.....everyone just sharing their views on a very good topic
    i dont know of a shop that just sells captive bred.

    in short.....as i said...yip we all should feel bad......about our tanks, about driving fuel drivin cars, about using electricity produced by coal etc etc.........

    your point is well taken......and we all doomed.....lol:lol:......seriously though awesome thread and poses a question that will take to long to anwser:blush:
     
  20. TheWaterboy

    TheWaterboy Sponsor

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    me too.......i need my stuff dude......lol:tt2:
    my mauritian tea ran out about 3 weeks ago and im getting withdrawl syptoms......and i may need to lend Dane that blue ray disc to see some hectic stuff under the sea.....far away;)
     
  21. Anemone

    Anemone

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    Is still a problem here.
     
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