Anemone cutting, coral frags and the law in SA

Discussion in 'Anemone's' started by dee, 1 Jul 2011.

  1. dee

    dee

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    Hi Sihaya, how often can an anemone be cut? I cut a magnifica and waited 2 weeks to cut again. Recovered well and cut him again 2 weeks later. Now have 8 pieces, but I think I am pushing my luck a little too far. Should I wait for them to regrow to their original size before the next lot of cuts
     
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  3. Anemone

    Anemone

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    Dee, I'm having a hard time believing what you have is actually an H. magnifica. If it is, you are extremely lucky that it is alive and well after cutting so quickly. Pics?
     
  4. sihaya

    sihaya

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    Wow, i would not have advised cutting it so many times in such a short period of time!
     
  5. Anemone

    Anemone

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    Agreed! I think some people are going by the Calfo propagation schedule. If memory serves me right he claimed you could get 2 thousand some anemones out of one in a years time. People are finding out that this is not the case. Again, this is if memory serves me right, either way it was a whole lot of anemones out of one. It was also the E. quadricolor, which is the most forgiving.

    Waiting on Dee to e-mail me pics so I can post and hopefully get a proper ID.
     
  6. dee

    dee Thread Starter

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    You seem to have doubts about what Mr Calfo is saying. I think that Mr Calfo is correct. As you can see from the photos I sent you, by time you get to 8, they are still a reasonable size. I think from there on you have to slow down and maybe only cut once a month. But its a numbers game and if you keep doubling from there on, you build up the numbers very quickly. And if you let a few grow to a large size you can start cutting every 2 weeks again on those particular large ones.

    Anyway I consider myself to be an absolute novice at keeping marines and will willingly follow and learn from experts like yourselves and Mr Calfo
     
    Last edited: 2 Jul 2011
  7. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    @dee you have a permit to propergate anemones?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  8. Reef Maniac

    Reef Maniac MASA Contributor

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    Dee, unfortunately, there is a large difference between theory, and the real world :whistling:

    Anthony Calfo is correct in saying that it is theoretically possible to do this type of propagation, but if it was possible (sustainable) in practise then anemones would be costing R1.50 each, and there would be thousands of them at every petshop selling marines... The same theory says that you can become a millionaire in less than a year by breeding rabbits, but how many rabbit millionaires do you know :whistling:

    Why don't you post the photos here in this thread, so that we can ALL see them?

    I'm just curious, but why on earth would anyone want more than one or two (max.) anemones in a tank? IF you are considering selling them, then be aware that (as Nemos Janitor has alluded to...) you need an aquaculture permit, and THAT will cost you a GREAT deal of money, time and frustration - it's really not worth it.

    With all due respects, absolute novices should not even be keeping a single anemone, much less trying to propagate them... the accepted "good practise" is to have a tank set up and running stable for at least 6 months (9 months would be much better) before even attempting to keep your first anemone. As you might know, anemones can live for hundreds of years in the oceans (yes, 100 years - 200 years...), but unfortunately real world statistics (Joyce Wilkerson & Rick Martin) has shown that 45% of all anemones kept by hobbyists with less than two years experience were dead after an average of three months, and that only 5% of all anemones kept by aquarists with 2 - 5 years of experience lived for more than two years :eek: :eek: This is the reason why people here on MASA are quite passionate about anemones, and why we try to discourage "absolute novices" from keeping anemones.

    Hennie
     
  9. dee

    dee Thread Starter

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    Hi Hennie,
    Maybe you misunderstood me. I may be a marine novice, but certainly am not the idiot you perceive me to be. Mr Calfo (as I do not know him personally), does advise that an anemone can be cut every 2 weeks at talks/lectures that he gives. But at these talks, because of time restraints, is not possible to personally hold everyone’s hand and walk him/her through the entire process. In other words, a lot of detail is omitted. Guidelines are given and it is assumed that people follow common sense, knowledge and intelligence to take it further. Judging by his lecture, Mr Calfo is passionate about marine life and is trying to get some people involved to relieve the burden that is being placed on the anemone population in the ocean – to him it’s definitely not a pure financial thing. If you do live in the real world, as you claim, you will also know that there are things called diseases, staff, Eskom etc., which can decimate your entire propagation stock within minutes/days/hours. Hence the need for propagation numbers, which also have to be contained in different areas to avoid contamination and spread of diseases.
    Photos have been sent to Brenda. I breed fish and have very limited computer knowledge.
    You talk about real world statistics. In South Africa, how many of your so called aquarists can explain the nitrogen cycle in detail even after keeping fish/coral for 2 years. In the old days, phytoplankton and frozen foods were not readily available and reasonably good cost effective lighting was also not freely available, neither was the internet. So how relevant are your statistics. Shouldn’t you rather try to educate the pet shops that are selling them as 80% of them haven’t a clue on what they are selling or doing. Anemones have to be fed, so I cannot see how maturing a tank for 6 months will miraculously keep your anemone alive, given the fact that technology has tipped the scale in our favour.
    With all due respects, this marine novice (idiot) as you may think I am, spent 2 months feeding up the anemone and studying what lighting it preferred. I also spent time seeing which knives to use and practised cutting meat and fish, as you get one chance and only one chance at cutting your anemone. One bad cut and it’s dead.
    As for Nemo’s Janitor, your already known advice was appreciated, but I see that he is in the industry and wonder if he has heard of the Biodiversity Act and how it could affect his living. The Biodiversity Act will become real, like it or not and people (like Steve Warren, Marcel etc), trying to learn how to propagate and breed should be encouraged and not discouraged, as those are the people that will keep your hobby going when the Act becomes a reality. It’s a sad fact in South Africa, that breeders are not paid what their stock is worth. Breeders are always being “screwed” by the pet trade and it is the breeders who will eventually keep your livelihood and hobby going in the long run.
    MASA and SA Reefkeeping members should keep “politics” out of fishkeeping if they truely intend to promote the hobby in SA and if you have nothing positive to add, then keep it to yourself.
    Incidently, if money was my true motivation, I’d go back to accountancy.
    As a parting thanks to Steve Warren and Marcel for information shared, use a kriesel for rearing Banggai cardinals. Makes life a lot easier.
    As of now, this Marine idiot will now prefer to waste his time elsewhere.
    To some of the so called “marine experts” here. Get real.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jul 2011
  10. coswecanfly

    coswecanfly

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    wow... :eek:
     
  11. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    @dee I am not going to comment on the anemone propagation thing other than to say that i have been to three of Calfo's workshops and seen the anemone split and other propagation techniques.

    All i asked was if you had a permit to propagate anemones. In South Africa, to be involved in any form of Mariculture one requires a permit. This mariculture includes coral propagation, Kelp farming, Fin fish, shell fish, plankton's, rotifers, ornamental fish, anemones, etc.. To obtain such a permit, one is required to submit an environmental impact study. Part of this study involves consideration of the Biodiversity Act which takes precedence over any other LAW.

    I cannot talk for other members but I am very aware of the goings on, and speed at which changes regarding the industry i am in, are taking place.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jul 2011
  12. rakabos

    rakabos

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    Geezzzzz someone needs to take some more Ritalin. Advice was given from experience, if you have a holier than hell attitude, why did u post here in the first place???

    The old saying, book knowledge vs experience, id always take the latter :1:
     
  13. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Would like to see the pics before commenting.
     
  14. coswecanfly

    coswecanfly

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    I agree with 459b... The proof is in the pudding...
     
  15. Annoying

    Annoying

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    Sorry a bit away from the continuing argument. Sorry if this is hijacking the thread but Nemo does this mean those on the forum that has a frag tank must also have this permit? Just wondering was interested in starting one.

    Hey come on guys if we fight like this then chance are that this thread will be closed and Pieter won't find out anything more about what HE asked about his nennie. Please of this is going to become a blood bath open your own thread or PM each other, that's why it's there. For private discussions.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jul 2011
  16. coswecanfly

    coswecanfly

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    Hear hear...
     
  17. Rod

    Rod

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    Hmmm, when I see someone actually doing some propagation blasted by all and sundry, this makes me wonder what the real goal of marine aquarists is.
    Surely propagating coral cant be a bad thing? It should advance our knowledge, reduce the load on the reefs?
    We should ask ourselves the question: Should the Biodiversity act not be revised to allow propagation?
    I have seen the anemonies in question. Eight fewer to be taken from the wild!
    Rod
    As you all have or will in the future received a frag from a fellow aquarist, are you not also breaking the law?
     
    Last edited: 4 Jul 2011
  18. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    As the law now stands unfortunately yes. However the hobbyist is not normally bothered buy the authorities unless they start to sell their fruit. The law was written with shell and fin fish aquaculture in mind. Ornamental coral and fish breeding is only now becoming an issue as restrictions on imports are nearing. As @dee says we need people to breed and propagate all the different species we can. But we have to do it in the correct way in partnership with MCM. Here is a link to the relevant departments documents and literature. Worth taking some time out and educating a little more. The permit "issue" is one a few of us are working on. Once one is issued the path to more will be opened.

    http://www.mcm-deat.gov.za/mariculture/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  19. Annoying

    Annoying

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    So actually this means all of the guys selling their frags on MASA are doing it illegally... Do you know how much such a permit costs and how hard it is to obtain one?
     
  20. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    1000% true, this is NOT the case, from my own personal experience and from hearing from other people I know that are also trying to propagate anemone's.
    I used to think Calfo was THE god of all gods in the reefkeeping world, I went all wobbly at the knees when I first met him, but sadly my opinion has changed somewhat on a lot of things he says, he makes far too many false claims, but anyway, I don't wish to run him down as he has done a lot of good for the hobby and he is respected worldwide.
    Agreed, a very, very large difference. About 2 years ago I went all out, and I mean, all out into anemone propagation, I was going to retire in 4 years time after selling 2000 anemone's a year as per Calfo's "theory". Well I can tell you this, after 2 years of spending bloody thousands on equipment and salt and tanks and electricity etc. etc. I now have 19 very small anemone's. I envisage another 3 or 4 years before I get to the stage of maybe having a few anemone's big enough to be able to sell. The amount of money I have spent to get to these 19 anemone's, I could have probably bought 50 anemone's. So yeah, my visions of an early retirement are down the drain, now I'm just doing it as an experiment to see how long it takes before it becomes financially viable, if it ever does, which I highly doubt it will.

    It's incredibly exciting the first 3 or 4 months when you go from 1 anemone into 4, but then reality sets in and the process slows down terribly and you start getting really disheartened as you see for yourself that "it just aint gonna happen brother".

    p.s. Here's a pic from my last cutting

    [​IMG]

    That photo was taken on the 21st March, we are now almost 4 months later and I still have not been able to cut again as they are just far too small.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jul 2011
  21. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Yes it is very hard to obtain a permit. Only one was ever issued for ornamental fish Mariculture and that was to Eskom way back in 2007. Not sure of the reasons it was not renewed but perhaps @Rod might know the answer.

    Costs and procedures are in the link i provided.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
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