You guys are really making me sick!

Nemos Janitor said:
Marcel Just sit back and think a little more my friend.

I/we are not disputing the fact that electrolysis has taken place in your system. Nor that you have stray electrical currents therein causing it. I am are questioning the ability of AC electrolysis to produce H2 and O2 and chlorine gas at less than 20mA. Any more than 20mA and your 20mA earth leakage will trip if it is working correctly.

So what needs to be proved is that chlorine gas is produced in sea water, NSW or synthetic, at lethal volumes at currents less than 20mA, voltage dependant. If so then your concerns are valid. If not then there is obviously nothing to worry about having a grounding probe with a good working earth leakage. Now for your theory/analogy lets look at experiments in this area.

Bud we are discussing here and need to treat the cause, not overcome a symptom/result. This is a great discussion and will benefit all.
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Fully agreed on the above. But there where theory and reality becomes very different.
And who knows, I still can not imagine that what happened to Herkie, could happen when everything is according to the theory.

I started this thread not to sort out my own problem. I started it, so it does not become someone's problem.
 
lIghty said:
Me too...and only had like 3 hours sleep last night thanks to my offspring :biggrin:
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I wish I could say that. Currently I don't have any offspring!:( ;)
 
I was asked a few questions via PM an thought it better to answer here because many may have similar queries.

Firstly, I am a motor mechanic by trade. So believe me if you will. ;)

Secondly, within my career path I transferred into instrumentation then mining communications which involved winder control gear which is the electrical relay panels to control the mine shaft winder gear and RF communications as well as some microwave. Sounds impressive, not really, i just got the opportunity to tell the engineers what to do. :biggrin: I was the manufacturing manager till i moved into this industry.

Thirdly, i am not an engineer nor a chemist nor boffin of any sort so please check out my recommendations with other sources.

Q. In an un-grounded tank, is it better to have insulated attire or is bare feet better when working on your tank?

A. If you have a good working earth leakage breaker then bare feet is a better option because the earth leakage device will protect you by tripping the electrical supply. But of course, the reliability of the earth leakage device determines safety. You will get a shock but the current will be discontinued before fibrillation. If you have good insulation to earth, then you stand the risk of being the conductor of the the current between live and nutral and being electrocuted, because there will be no earth leakage until some part of your uninsulated body touches earth.

Q. But why have insulated equipment for safety if it will not trip the earth leakage?

A. Insulated equipment is designed to protect personnel working on electrical lines. If a personnel works on a "live" live or "live" neutral line nothing will happen if he touches it in error. If he is not insulated current goes to earth through the personnel to earth. "fried chips". However insulated or not touching live and neutral will result in electrocution.

Hope this answers the questions asked. If i have missed anything please add or contradict.:thumbup:
 
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Ok, curve ball - have you guys taken into consideration, using 220v near brine water, just an energized cable near water is enough, also fluorescent bulbs aswell as compacts for DSB or ATS. the word here is EMF. which is present in any electron active conduit, which is enough to add anything from 3 to 20v+ AC into your tank. without actually making direct contact with said fluid.
 
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I have not really followed this Thread as I can't make out "heads-or-tails" of the Topic in hand...:005:..but just came across this...the more I don't understand a thing...the more I figured this is what LuckyFish was refering too...(wording wise and not so much understanding wise...)..:blush:..please bare in my I know NOTHING about this Topic and have no idea whether it is relevent..:blush: Also bare in mind...I don't know when this Article was printed...last "time stamp..2006..but surely Info should still be revelant...?:blush: This Info was on the WEB for about 6yrs already...why are we only discussing this Topic now...
Conventional wisdom found in magazine articles and in the bowers of world wide web chat rooms indicated that “voltage” in aquaria is one of the factors that can cause Hole in the Head and Lateral Line Erosion. We read quotes like, “Stray voltage is something that exists in every tank. Stray voltage can be eliminated with a simple ground probe available at most pet shops in the twenty dollar range. Elimination of stray voltage is a simple step in reducing the stress on your fish. Every marine tank should be grounded for your protection and that of your fish.” Is it true? Well not exactly, and as I will discuss below, the addition of a ground probe may even make matters worse!
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Aquarium Grounding Probes


Someone once asked the question, "If an aquarium exhibits a static potential above ground, wouldn't a ground probe dissipate this static potential differential with essentially "zero" current flow, after the initial voltage was dissipated?" To answer this, we must have an understanding of what these static potentials are.
Voltage is a potential difference. The generator of the voltage doesn't go away unless the static voltage is truly static (as in a capacitor). If the "static voltage" is one created by induction, it will still be present to generate some kind of current even if shorted through a ground probe. You may measure essentially no voltage, but you could still have current. How this affects fish and coral is an open question. People stick a volt meter probe in the water and touch something that they think is "ground". If they read a voltage, then they may be measuring an induced voltage (from lights or other things), and providing a current path isn't the answer if none already exists. True static voltages are "dissipatable" such as those generated by walking across a carpet (though these are probably not much of an issue with marine aquaria since there is usually so much conductive surface film (salt) that resistance will eventually dissipate such a charge).
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Technical Details of Stray Voltage in Aquaria
 
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Nemos Janitor said:
Firstly, I am a motor mechanic by trade. So believe me if you will. ;)

As long as your not a used car saleman :p


Q. In an un-grounded tank, is it better to have insulated attire or is bare feet better when working on your tank?

A. If you have a good working earth leakage breaker then bare feet is a better option because the earth leakage device will protect you by tripping the electrical supply. But of course, the reliability of the earth leakage device determines safety. You will get a shock but the current will be discontinued before fibrillation. If you have good insulation to earth, then you stand the risk of being the conductor of the the current between live and nutral and being electrocuted, because there will be no earth leakage until some part of your uninsulated body touches earth.

Simply put, you never want to be a "conductor" of electricity, because if you are, this means that electricity is passing through you,so therefore it is always safer to wear insulated shoes/clothing. Yes, the E.L. will only trip if you conduct to the ground, but this should be seen only as a "last resort" safety, as it does result in getting a shock.


Q. But why have insulated equipment for safety if it will not trip the earth leakage?

A. Insulated equipment is designed to protect personnel working on electrical lines. If a personnel works on a "live" live or "live" neutral line nothing will happen if he touches it in error. If he is not insulated current goes to earth through the personnel to earth. "fried chips". However insulated or not touching live and neutral will result in electrocution.

I think I covered it in my above answer?


Hope this answers the questions asked. If i have missed anything please add or contradict.:thumbup:
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Hope that helps?
 
Ok, my take after following this thread is that we should have a ground probe /probes in our tank- preferably as close to the electricle items as practicle, but we should also have an ammeter permanently connected showing mA reading.
The fact that the ground probe is in the tank, the ammeter will probabally show a current flow because of induced voltages created by the electricle fields of the lighting, pumps etc. This current flow should be very low - in the order of a couple of milli amps. I dont think this extremly low current flow due to induction would cause the electolysis problems that lucky Fish is experiencing.
If a pump etc however becomes faulty the ammeter reading would jump significantly - giving you a visual warning that there is an electrical problem in the tank.
Would also provide a warning that your earth leakage protection is not up to scratch

Where is the downside to this? What am I missing?
 
Shouldent the rule of thumb be, DO NOT PUT YOUR HANDS IN YOUR TANK IF IT IS PLUGED IN???

This topic will go on forever and I am sure that there will be no agreement on this.

I personally will not put a earth prong into my tank, but have a Lightning protection plug on it.

This plug shows me, with a little LED if all the plugs, pluged into it is protected or if there is a problem.
 
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Johan Nieuwenhuizen said:
Shouldent the rule of thumb be, DO NOT PUT YOUR HANDS IN YOUR TANK IF IT IS PLUGED IN???

This topic will go on forever and I am sure that there will be no agreement on this.

I personally will not put a earth prong into my tank, but have a Lightning protection plug on it.

This plug shows me, with a little LED if all the plugs, pluged into it is protected or if there is a problem.
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I think that is a stupid rule, even though it makes sense. I haven't seen a single reefer doing this. Imagine the LFS switches everything off when catching something.
 
Think of it this way, they should actually be doing it. We are working with Salt water(high conductivity potencial) and electricity. Water and power dont mix well!!!

I also believe grounding something is not a good idea. The only solution is to buy all your equipment in 12v versions. that way you will never have a issue, but 12v is beyond expensive.

We should be more diligent when it comes to electricity and water, we know the risks but we dont acknowlegde them.
 
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Yes, I have never seen a LFS do it, but that does not mean that I can not do it.
I will rather sacrifice 10 min of the tank being off than take the risk.

I studied Electrical Engineering and do have some knowledge of electricity, and can testify that not all earth leakages work the same.

Most of our houses is build with the cheapest ones available, and I personally will not risk it.
 
dumbo said:
Ok, curve ball - have you guys taken into consideration, using 220v near brine water, just an energized cable near water is enough, also fluorescent bulbs aswell as compacts for DSB or ATS. the word here is EMF. which is present in any electron active conduit, which is enough to add anything from 3 to 20v+ AC into your tank. without actually making direct contact with said fluid.
Click to expand...


Google Electo motive force-EMF


I have a Multi tester laying at the floor inside next to the Sump area, and at least twice a week before i place my hand in, I test for amperage and Voltage.
 
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Swimming pool pumps has a buildt in diode, current can only go one direction and not reverse, wouldn't this be a solution.
 
What about a simple little cuircut, A diode, Resistor and Buzzer, this will give you a warning if there is current leaking to earth?
 
dendrosa said:
Ok, my take after following this thread is that we should have a ground probe /probes in our tank- preferably as close to the electricle items as practicle, but we should also have an ammeter permanently connected showing mA reading.

It is not neccesary to have the ammeter connected permintly, however you can do this should you like, but one would need to have a unit thats more suitable for the use, But I wouldn't really worry about it.


If a pump etc however becomes faulty the ammeter reading would jump significantly - giving you a visual warning that there is an electrical problem in the tank.

Thats correct, however your E.L. should drop at the 20mA mark

Would also provide a warning that your earth leakage protection is not up to scratch

In a way yes, but doesn't replace testing it correctly with a E.L. tester. If you reading say 30mA and it hasn't tripped, you have a problem.

Where is the downside to this? What am I missing?
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Its complicates things abit more, hence I would just recommend running a streight grounding probe, you could aways to check it so often.
 
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