LFS's role in our Hobby???

my 2 c

SIMS said:
Agree with what you say, Moolis i get the impression you are not too worried about the "informal" traders? Do you feel they affect your turnover? Do you think they have a place in the market? Do you think they help drive pricing down?
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SIMS it is obvios that you have not seen my shop on a avarage day!!! We are so busy that I sometimes do not even have time to talk to my friends (marine hobbiests and tropical fish breeders mostly).

To answer your questions:
...not too worried about the "informal" traders?
No I need them!! at present the big guns are not intrested in us, it is these guys that help me with the relevent stock to ensure that my business are successful.
Do you feel they affect your turnover?(negatively?)
Those that act as retailors, a resounding YES.
Those that act as retailors + wholesalers, yes but if I decided to have it in stock, my customers tend to support me.
Those that act as wholesalers, not at all.
Do you think they have a place in the market?
It is all about SUPPLY & DEMAND. So YES the balance in the market is so much out of kilt that it might look stable from the outside:lol:
2007 we saw that the bigger wholesalers started to import reasonable veriety of products @ reasonable prices:thumbup: (thank you to all of them). I hear a bird :whistling: saying that in 2008 some of the BIG guns intend to import marine products. As this happens more of these traders will fall out. But the niche products will always be there for the taking (we intend to import and distribute 10 + of these products in 2008)
Do you think they help drive prices down?
Again SUPPLY & DEMAND will stabilse the prices and those that are selling @ to low prices will be out of business sooner or later. The only problem i see is that they could damadge the trade after they left it.(by forsing product prices so it is not economical for any person to go into competition and then they go BELLY UP!!)

We (traders + hobbiests) need them.

Always hooked on MARINES greetings
Moolis
 
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Thanks Moolis seems like we agree on alot of stuff. No I have not been to your shop YET....but when I'm in the area I will definatly call in. I look forward to 2008 and hope that all traders (big and small) bring in new products for our reefs :)
 
I must say I think some of the items suggested out there for a marine tank are just nice to have but don't really make the difference everyone says they do.

Let’s face it, the fancy tanks with calcium reactors, chillers, phosphate reactors etc are there because that reefer has no limits on money. No offence to the guys out there who have any of these.

The small seller selling from his house, with another income can't be compared to the LFS.

Of the LFS’s that I know in my area, of which I can think of 6 of them, that do marine. Not one of them only does marine. They all do marine, tropical, dogs, birds etc etc.

How can they compare to the guy working out his house, has a passion for marines and only brings in marine products. No staff, no extra tanks to clean. No maintenance etc etc etc.

I personally will not buy from one of these, no matter how good the price is. I spend many hours in my LFS and am usually there the whole of Saturday as well as Friday afternoon from 16:30 till 18:00. I gotta say I see many customers come in ask his advice and then go and buy from the guy down the road who runs from his house because it is cheaper. Then they say this is fair practise. You expect him, the LFS, to give the advice but you support the other guy because you can get it down the road for cheaper. I think someone who comes in with that attitude has an attitude problem.

Think of the costs involved in setting up a pet shop. You gotta buy all the tanks. Fill them with RO water and salt. Then add all the coral and all the equipment. Then you stock them and lose many fish for the first year as your tanks are not mature enough. Then we complain because the LFS is expensive. Man what do we expect from these poor guys.

Let’s face it we are here to make money, well at least I am. Not to skin my client alive but I am here to make money. Surely the LFS is also entitled to this.

I have often heard my LFS say go check the one tank I have some livestock which I am keeping for a client. Then the client will complain because a fish died. The LFS doesn’t charge rent and he feeds the fish at his expense. Then when I ask how that client is doing he will say no I haven’t seen him in months.

So the LFS was good enough to help out while you needed a tank to hold your fish, but hey he is too expensive to support when your crisis is over.

This is sad to see and in the end the LFS will just say, you know what stuff this. Sell everything and do something else. Who can blame him. In the end who looses out, we do!
 
Moolis said:
Do you think they help drive prices down?
Again SUPPLY & DEMAND will stabilse the prices and those that are selling @ to low prices will be out of business sooner or later. The only problem i see is that they could damadge the trade after they left it.(by forsing product prices so it is not economical for any person to go into competition and then they go BELLY UP!!)
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Moolis I agree and disagree, the guy who has zero overheads will do it until he gets bored or earns money from something else, then he leaves the items he sold without backup and a price expectation as well. Not good for anyone.

Moolis you are one of the few converted, however the bulk of petshop owners are not.
 
hi silvano 14
i must say whatever i am paying you it is not enough. as a shop keeper who is not a sponcer on a forum i cant get involved in mud slinning. but at the end of the day it is price that counts in most instances, you get very few people out there that think like you. for that i thank you. after all the customer is never wrong it is us shop keepers that sell stuff at crazy prices and give bad advise,
there will never be a perfect anser to this argument but lets just hope the hobby keeps growing and more people get involved in it, it will help all of us in the end,
thanks
peter bee
 
I am one of the informal traders and I began my little operation to provide an option to the budget conscious reefer. It has always been my philosphy to supply my prodcuts at the best price possible to a persons with limited budgets.

There was a gap in the market, and I took it. I sell exclusively through another forum currently and as Moolis has pointed out the online market is very small and all I am in it for is some extra bucks to support my reef - nothing more. I have discussed in passing with some LFS's about stocking my range buy there was no real positive feedback so I don't feel that I am affecting their businesses significantly at all. It is not my livelihood and so don't need to generate huge profits to do this.

But one reason for me why wholesaling is not too attractive is because of my philosphy of best price. Adding another person in the chain means higher prices. I'd rather sell one refractometer and make myself R100, than five as a wholesaler (make R300) and then the customers have to spend money unnecessarily.

Maybe I'm not a good example cause I am not profit motivated but I don't think us smaller guys are really a threat to the decent LFS's anyway. After all, what is stopping them approaching the suppliers of goods directly as we smaller guys do? They hae more cash than us and would be able to bring in the stuff even cheaper than us cause they would be able to purchase more at a time.
 
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Clinton, the point I am trying to make is that although your stuff is real good, and it is, it is much cheaper than what the LFS sells the "brandname" items for.

Hence, the LFS will do his utmost not to send his customers to a forum, simply becuase he will lose sales. The knock on affect is the forum does not grow as fast as it could with the LFS's support, thus more people "fail" with there set ups due to lack of the right advise. This in turn means the hobby grows slower than it could.

And I know, yes the LFS should have the knowledge to give the right advise, and competition is good, and cheaper items for the budget reefer is good, at the end of the day looking at it realistically the majority of LFS are not that clued up yet, hence they keep people away from the forums. It might not be right but it is the case.
 
A 100% mark-up on a branded item, brings in a lot more money for the LFS's than a 100% mark-up on a non-branded item.

In the case of additives which are not really fast movers it is therefore better for them to sell one bottle of Seachem or Kent every 2-3 months to a reefer than a cheaper brand where the margins are a lot lower.

So it is a difficult position the LFS's can find themselves in. They do need to turn a profit, pay rent and salaries and have enough cashflow to keep a wide range of items in stock in the hope that someone might need an item they stock. There will always be a place for them though as no matter how large the forums become nothing can beat physically being in the shop itself. They may need to adapt with the times and change a few practises to keep up, but in the end those that do, and ar "good" will always prevail.
 
palmerc said:
A 100% mark-up on a branded item, brings in a lot more money for the LFS's than a 100% mark-up on a non-branded item.
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Yes hell it does, my LFS has 2 local additive ranges, AM and Red Sea as well that 4 in total, the local product is a 3rd of the price, i have stood and listened how he told people to buy the local/cheaper kalk, and time and again they rather go for the "branded" goods

Go figure, people??:lol:
 
Kanga said:
Yes hell it does, my LFS has 2 local additive ranges, AM and Red Sea as well that 4 in total, the local product is a 3rd of the price, i have stood and listened how he told people to buy the local/cheaper kalk, and time and again they rather go for the "branded" goods

Go figure, people??:lol:
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Sounds like one of the good guys:thumbup:
 
Kanga said:
Yes hell it does, my LFS has 2 local additive ranges, AM and Red Sea as well that 4 in total, the local product is a 3rd of the price, i have stood and listened how he told people to buy the local/cheaper kalk, and time and again they rather go for the "branded" goods

Go figure, people??:lol:
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I see it all the time....But it's their prerogative. I provide the option, it is up to them to do the research to see if it meets their requirements in terms of quality, price, performance and delivery.

Hopefully one day people will see the light and not buy purely on brand. But when you have limited time, the right budget, then I suppose they willind to pay the extra for peace of mind.
 
Wee-Man said:
Sounds like one of the good guys:thumbup:
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Oh I think he is, he will GIVE a guy a pump rather than see the guys reef crash because he is short of cash, but he is there to make money, he loves it when i talk to his customers, on one condition, dont mention MASA, he sees us as his opposition, and its this mindset we have to change.
 
Kanga said:
Oh I think he is, he will GIVE a guy a pump rather than see the guys reef crash because he is short of cash, but he is there to make money, he loves it when i talk to his customers, on one condition, dont mention MASA, he sees us as his opposition, and its this mindset we have to change.
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oh dear, i hope he realises we are all on the same team really.
 
Wee-Man said:
oh dear, i hope he realises we are all on the same team really.
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I think he and others do realise this, but I have been in his shop when a guy arrives and says how much for that piece of equipment, he says R2800, the guy says "nooit bru, I can get it for R2500 on the net" the guy buys it then realises with shipping and VAT the LFS was cheaper after all, comes back and says Damn you know Mr LFS i should have bought from you.

Mr. LFS thinks "#@@**&%$%#@%%^* I told you, but I have lost the sale whether I was right or wrong therefore the Net is my opposition."
 
Kanga said:
I think he and others do realise this, but I have been in his shop when a guy arrives and says how much for that piece of equipment, he says R2800, the guy says "nooit bru, I can get it for R2500 on the net" the guy buys it then realises with shipping and VAT the LFS was cheaper after all, comes back and says Damn you know Mr LFS i should have bought from you.

Mr. LFS thinks "#@@**&%$%#@%%^* I told you, but I have lost the sale whether I was right or wrong therefore the Net is my opposition."
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Ok he lost the sale on the first bit of kit - but if the bloke comes in again there is a chance for more sales - you still can't buy fish on the net (i hope)
 
ok here goes

i am a shop owner who gave this a lot of thought last night. in comes a dood that wants to start a marine tank, first question he askes is how mutch is it to convert my tropical tank into a sea tank. sorry it cant be done. why not, you then go on to explaine to him the reasons. next thing how mutch again, you give him a price for a normal set up nothing fancy, he only wants to have nemo and a few plants in his tank. sorry i dont have that sort of money is there nothing cheeper, so you show him a nother skimmer and so on. then they say but the shop down the road said i dont need this or that to do it . he leaves after a while, next week he is back looking around askes a few more questions and leaves. a few weeks later he is back in the shop. hi how you doing, his reply is that shop down the road sold me this and that and all my fish are sick why. you ask a few simple things and he has got it all screwed up. so he as a customer did shop around he went to a few shops got the advice he was looking for and bought where he chose to shop, now my point is who is the fool the shop keeper who sold a customer what he thought he wanted, or the idiot who did not take the advice given, we have lots of shops in the west but there are only two honest ones, he chose not to take advice from, this happens not only on fish but every thing sold in a pet shop. so you cant blame the shop keeper for doing buisness, if a person comes in here and wants to buy a lets just say a jedo skimmer who am i to tell him not to buy one. i can try sell him a better item and some times they take advise and do so but most the time you know what you want when you get to the shop.
thats how it works in real life most of us complain about shops not telling you about forums and how bad the service is and so but most of you started out with a lets say jebo skimmer, and now you all got the biggest and the best, and compeat to see who can buy the most expencive, the biggest the fancyest and latest thing out there.good for all of us but, but remember you to started at the lousy fish shop down the road just like the rest of us, sounds correct hey, and you all still visit the lousy shop for things and sometimes advice and thats how we all live.so who is wrong and who is correct we will never know just keep doing what you doing and the marine buisness will still grow, you will still get bargins and still get ripped off. that how it works in any buisness, you should know most of you experts in everything, ok mabey not all of you.
thanks for listerning
peter bee
 
Peter what you say is correct, we must not lose sight of the fact that there are good and bad LFS and sponsors (thankfully not on MASA).

And what you say about people having made up their mind, very true, i too though this Jebo pipe thing will work as good as that AM pipe thing (what did I know) as far as I was concerned the LFS was trying to sell me the most expensive item to make more money. But the fact remains as you say, i went into a little LFS and said kewl, i want one of those seawater tanks.

The point I have been trying to make is that the LFS is in the vast majority of cases is a new reefkeepers first point of contact with the hobby, and a lot gets kept away from the forums due to the "competition feeling"

Peter, would you as LFS (and a decent one by the sounds of it) encourage your customers to join a forum l where they can buy items cheaper etc??
 
Peter Bee said:
you will still get bargins and still get ripped off. that how it works in any buisness
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Not in my business!

Peter I agree with what you saying, alot of people ask advice and then dissagree with the shop, alot of people think they know everything. I have seen it many times at the LFS. I do not think anyone would blame the LFS owner in this case.

Its nice to see shop owners on forums.

Tell us how do you as a shop keeper see the internet/forums? Do you tell your customers about it....why? Do you see informal traders as a threat? In your business do you see a big increase in interest in our hobby? Do you know if your customers use the internet?

I would find it very interesting to know how big our hobby really is....anyone have any ideas? I think we may be suprised at how many people are involved in reefkeeping in SA. I suspect that our online family is just a very small part of them...anyone have any ideas?
 
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