LED UV, is it a farce, lets discuss

K back to electromagnetic spectrum. It concerns many aspects of lighting within the visible spectrum.

UV is apparent in this spectrum as is Infrared. Any thoughts from the grads...?
 
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My addition to this discussion is that the guys developing the units do thorough research,I'm no expert but I don't think 'leaders' in the market namely Ecotech,vertex,pacific sun etc will include these uvs or even the red,green,orange Leds if it was a 'Farce' .... I knw they somehow contribute and we cant look @ the UV alone as the tank is not gna run only UV's ... Its a colour spectrum they creating to maximise the comparison between real sunlight/moonlight and the units .... So its a colour mixture and I think they well on track as they are researched not just by me and you, but by qualified scientist and marine biologists:thumbup:

I also believe it again boils down to people trying to convince themselves that they don't need it,which I also think is not a necesity but units containing only blue and white is also much cheaper on the market,but as effective because before LED units, we ran t5s and MHs
 
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@STC-1000 very well put, i agree with that, but i like starting these threads to get reefers to think and understand the choices we make, some dont always go as planned, wait till i start my water change thread :)
 
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but more than just a hack and slash thread, i want it to make reefers think
no more lemmings
 
Its good to get the reefers thinking, everybody just folows protocall ,unlike me,I experiment with diferent ways and methods, but for the newbies, protocall it is,as it helps them do it effectively .....
 
it does, but sometimes and i say sometimes it can cause more spend, and lack of thinking.
i prefer to have all the cards out, and explain the nitrogen cycle, the MANY ways for doing things etc.

eg. most recommendations are for DSB's, while easy and effective, so is prodibio etc
 
I just came across this random comment on a photo on facebook, from a UK shop, he was commenting on how a Scoly lost it's colour after being under LED's for 5 months, then he put it under 250w MH's for 3 weeks and it regained it's colour.
There is defiantly better colour development under MH! Possibly due to the lack of UV in the LEDs
So the thought process is out there.
 
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interesting
 
I agree @viper357, however what makes me scratch my head is that so much money is spent on developing high end LEDs units that I can't see how they would make such a random and idiotic assumptions that UV light is not important, or that it might not be needed.
Surely research and development must've been done. Would they risk their own companies reputation and future in the market? I don't know, it just doesn't make any logical sense to me.
 
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I wouldn't go so far as to call it random, idiotic and risking reputation, as with any new technology it takes years and years to perfect and learn all the ins and outs, no matter how much money they put into R and D, nobody ever gets it right the first time, look at smartphones for example, the first screens were so blurry compared to the screens these days that are called retina displays...years and years of R and D...just like LED's.

LED's have exploded onto our scene over the last year or two, everybody is trying to get their foot in the door very quickly and make something better than their competitor, which is good because that's how new technologies develop and new discoveries are made.
 
what would happen if the tubes used in tanning beds were used to basically tan ur corals for 10mins a day? Would this not cause them to colour up if used inconjunction with a blue/white led setup that has no dedicated uv and then allow you to control how much exposure to uv your corals recieve?

I would be hesitant to throw uv leds into a diy setup as i have no clue how much uv is too much or too little in relation to the blue/white reds. I think you could easily add to much uv and fry ur corals over time. The top end brands have obviously done their research on this and their units will put out the correct levels of iv without melting the corals.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to call it random, idiotic and risking reputation, as with any new technology it takes years and years to perfect and learn all the ins and outs, no matter how much money they put into R and D, nobody ever gets it right the first time, look at smartphones for example, the first screens were so blurry compared to the screens these days that are called retina displays...years and years of R and D...just like LED's.

LED's have exploded onto our scene over the last year or two, everybody is trying to get their foot in the door very quickly and make something better than their competitor, which is good because that's how new technologies develop and new discoveries are made.

Very true. I suppose it's crazies like me who keep them going, instead of being patient!:blush::p
 
The question is, do the developers have true UV diodes available to them....
There are true uv leds around, one has to ask why they have not been implemted to simulate spectrographs found in lamps which do emit uv.
Although the article NJ linked to is very informative, the reality for us sps freaks is slightly different. Most of the corals we keep do have maa's for protection against uv...
In fact its mostly those colours which make some of us keep sticks....
 
I suppose, as a manufacture of the Vertex Illumina, one should expect any of my comments to be considered biased. Despite this possible perception, let me tell you a bit of the UV story from this side.

First, yes, certain parts of the UV spectrum are interesting for corals. The area around 390-400nm clearly is involved with the maturation of certain GFP into red pigments (kaede pigments). This part of the spectrum has been represented by both T-5s and Halides in variing amounts. As leds were first mature enough (as a technology) to be usefull as aquarium lighting, there were no UV leds available. This is why they are later to arrive on the scene.

(also, just to make it clear, UVA is below 400nm. Above this we are dealing with a violet, a part of the PAR spectrum. PAR is nothing more than the to humans visible electromagnetic spectrum: light! 400nm to about 700nm. Above this we are in the infrared, which we know better as heat)

The first UVA leds were mainly developed for the medical/science industries and had a very high pricetag, making them economically prohibitive for aquariums. Also, their wavelengths were not well researched in relation to corals. The question was, do we need them.

Interestingly, the answer is actually, a partial No! Corals will grow and develope beautiful forms and colours without them. However, and this is the main point of them, certain pigments will no longer develope without certain parts of the UVA to violet spectrum. This has become clearer over the last years as we have researched the reactions of corals to specific parts of the spectrum.

In the end, and here speaking for Vertex, we want to offer the customer a product they can use now and grow with. The original LED array of the Vertex lamps is designed to allow an aquarist to grow wonderfull corals. And it does this. As many of us are never happy with what we have and do wish to push the envelope, as new possibilities become available and meaningfull, Vertex brings them onto the market in a package that the aquarist can pick and choose from. Truly individual lighting possibilities. You would be surprised to know, most aquarists are not interested in having all the latest innovations. They prefer usefull stability. The dyed-in-the-wool marine aquarist is another species altogether. They want to see what can be manipulated, improved, customised, etc. For these people the new, affordable UV to violet led options are of great interest. They can now squeeze a bit more our of the corals.

Time will tell just how much UVA to violet specific corals benefit from. If you look at the attenuation of light in seawater, you will notice that the 410-420nm range is actually the strongest penetrator, reaching 100m and more. Keep in mind, light spectrum is important for pigment developement, as most pigments are actually protecting the corals from too much radiation of that colour. Yes, a red coral is reflecting away excess red radiation. It doesn't want it. This does not mean that red pigment is the result of red light per se, rather that the coral reacts to this light with a production of a specific pigment. This pigment may require 405nm violet to mature to this red! Therefore, red is not the colour to add to get stronger red pigment in most cases (I have to stay open with this statement, as we are always learning more and this part of the puzzle is far from complete). Things are simply not that straight foreward.

I hope this is not too much information. The original question was, is UV a farce. Answer: certainly not! It is another part of the puzzle and the picture is getting more and more complete. As technology moves foreward, so will led lighting technique. LEDs are a welcome paradigm shift in aquarium lighting offering a completely new approach to reefing. Once you work with them, it's like having the glasses clean and really perceiving what light is and what you can do with it.

Jamie
 
Interesting I was reading on RC about my Pacific Sun's someone asked a very similar question and the PS guys responded. They said the AMOUNT and LEVEL of UV required to get an equivalent effect as normal reef light will not be possible with the current LED UV lights we have.

They also don't see it becoming available in the near future.....
 
My understanding as well Jamie. What are your thoughts infrared?
Infrared may well be a farce! Really, over 700nm there is no sign of pigment production or photosynthesis. It is heat. One would expect this to be part of the ambient environment of the tank. Admittedly, there seems to be no direct research on the warming and cooling of corals on the reef flat, however, excess heat has been clearly tied to coral bleaching. Infrared would seem to be a danger in any case, based on what we now know.

There is what we know as the Emmerson Effect, which has been noted in terrestiral and emerged aquatic plants. This is a specific photosynthetic exchange between two specific wavelengths whereby the efficiency is increased. It is interesting, but dependant on radiation at 660nm and 690nm (this is PAR, not infrared), which are not found on the reef and only at specific moments on the exposed reef flat. It would not be a deciding factor for the reef aquarist. Trying to tie it to better pigment or growth developement in corals is really grasping for straws.

Jamie
 
Interesting I was reading on RC about my Pacific Sun's someone asked a very similar question and the PS guys responded. They said the AMOUNT and LEVEL of UV required to get an equivalent effect as normal reef light will not be possible with the current LED UV lights we have.

They also don't see it becoming available in the near future.....

let's just say I disagree.

Jamie
 
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