Phosphate levels: a never-ending struggle

Seems your sump is 500mm wide, front to back.

Flake test, testing the rate of flow via a sump. You want enough flow so that flakes released just under water at inlet side to travel as far away as possible. It should not settle down immediately below the point where you released it. Do you have any settlement on your DSB at this moment? How is the tanks connected? One or 2 50mm pipes?

I found the water head test to be a better measurement for flow rate. The water level between last divider and actual water surface should be between 6 and 10mm. It does not matter how wide the sump in different systems. If it got the same head height it got the same flow rate.

For a nice head height I calculated a pump delivering 3300 into the tank. That is after head height being taken into account. The pump you got is too small.

But before you go out and buy a bigger pump, just test it first. Add a 1000 to 1500 L/h pump that goes directly back to first chamber for a couple of weeks. That should increase your flow rate.

On the first day, temporary redirect your main return also to the first chamber, going into a filter sock. Just wave above the sand lifting the detritus. It should go to last chamber, pumped by return pump back to first chamber into the filter sock. Just keep an eye on the sock that it does not get too dirty and overflow. This should be a once of job just to get rid of the excess. Then let the sump settle. Redirect main return to display. And thereafter let the system run with the extra pump running water directly to the first chamber.

After a couple of weeks, you should be able to see if this test actually worked. Then you can upgrade your return pump. Only problem is that your overflow is narrower than your sump. Upgrading the return pump will increase the head height in the display. Issues with that are that you will have more water draining when the power goes out. And possible for livestock to flush over. Easily end up with a 5mm rise in the water level in the display. Depending on your system, just keeping the second pump directed to first chamber would be better.

Lastly, are there anything on the sand? Like a piece of live rock or some empty snail shells?
 
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Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the great replies - I will rever back ASAP with comments, and pictures (not of me sucking my rock:p). Work a trip to Cape Town have meant that I have about 2 minutes available to send this message. But I truly appreciate your time and effort to reply. Oops, time up!
:thumbup:
 
have a good trip
a note on PO4
Some elements will bind PO4 from the water column and will accumulate in the sand and rocks. Under certain conditions the PO4 can leach back in the water column, also algae for example can pick up the PO4 directly from the substrate/rock. It can be typical for such systems to have no detectable PO4 in the water column in which algae can grow very well.
 
Phosphate will inhibit all corals and poison fish slowly as they drink enormous amounts of the water they live in.

Firstly inorganic phosphates are after the nitrite cycle takes out the once living tissue side of it and is found in tap water as well.

Within tissue is organic as the phosphorus is bound with orthophosphate in the tissue, algae will account for this natural substance,(phosphorus not orthophosphate, that’s a harmless acid) phosphorus will inhibit the algae clades survival that are symbiotic with in the coral creatures cells and kill your more delicate corals.

Firstly I don’t use a skimmer or ever do water changes or anything like phosban or the better phosbuster,I use a clean robust home made bio filter and non toxic single celled algae, those types work far better at importing, toxins as well.

I have 0 to near 0 levels o phosphorus, which is what we test for when testing for phosphates, depending on when I test compared to when I trim my algae that is.

Before an algae trim,0 phosphates after the trim from the next day, near no readings of phosphates and with in 3 days,0 again and never a trace of nitrate .

You handle several good caulerpa forms the right ways and along with a decent bio filter with settling pre filters and there are never any parameters to be concerned with or bother testing for.

Sps and everything else plus far to many fish in such a small area, all thrive.

The hobby has been kidnapped over the last 30 plus years, even worse from 15 years back and the natural processes that control the planet that we can use for our reef aquarium are condemned and push aside and rediculed, because there is no money in natural processes or glory from being the first to buy it or can afford it, you can make all the clean and natural ways your self!

Plant life along with microbes controls the entire planet and 60 percent that happens in the ocean and we can copy and manipulate our own under the tank.
 
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jacquesb said:
Hi Corralline - please show us pictures of your tank and sump? As been said before - do you run any chemical filtration already? Do you use macro-algae in your sump, ie chaetomorpha?

What corals do you have in your tank?
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Hi Jacquesb,

I think I provided all of that info in my opening post (apart from the pics, which I'm going to upload shortly;)). [I am using Orca GFH phosphate remover (I just recharged it for re-use); I do have a small amount (not enough, need to get more) of caulerpa in my in-sump refugium; I have 2 small corals at the moment, but these are local, brown zoas...nothing exotic or delicate.

Thanks.
 
RiaanP said:
Seems your sump is 500mm wide, front to back.

Flake test, testing the rate of flow via a sump. You want enough flow so that flakes released just under water at inlet side to travel as far away as possible. It should not settle down immediately below the point where you released it. Do you have any settlement on your DSB at this moment? How is the tanks connected? One or 2 50mm pipes?

I found the water head test to be a better measurement for flow rate. The water level between last divider and actual water surface should be between 6 and 10mm. It does not matter how wide the sump in different systems. If it got the same head height it got the same flow rate.

For a nice head height I calculated a pump delivering 3300 into the tank. That is after head height being taken into account. The pump you got is too small.

But before you go out and buy a bigger pump, just test it first. Add a 1000 to 1500 L/h pump that goes directly back to first chamber for a couple of weeks. That should increase your flow rate.

On the first day, temporary redirect your main return also to the first chamber, going into a filter sock. Just wave above the sand lifting the detritus. It should go to last chamber, pumped by return pump back to first chamber into the filter sock. Just keep an eye on the sock that it does not get too dirty and overflow. This should be a once of job just to get rid of the excess. Then let the sump settle. Redirect main return to display. And thereafter let the system run with the extra pump running water directly to the first chamber.

After a couple of weeks, you should be able to see if this test actually worked. Then you can upgrade your return pump. Only problem is that your overflow is narrower than your sump. Upgrading the return pump will increase the head height in the display. Issues with that are that you will have more water draining when the power goes out. And possible for livestock to flush over. Easily end up with a 5mm rise in the water level in the display. Depending on your system, just keeping the second pump directed to first chamber would be better.

Lastly, are there anything on the sand? Like a piece of live rock or some empty snail shells?
Click to expand...

Thanks again Riaan - what a great post you sent. I really like your idea about the 2nd pump returning water to the 1st chamber into a filter sock, as an experiment at first but if it works even as a permanent measure. The water head (between the top of the baffle in the last chamber and the water surface is about 5mm, so could well indicate insufficient flow through the DSM).

I will put up some pics tonight, and those will show my set up in all its glory/madness/uniqueness!
No - I have removed all objects off the sand in the DSB, as detritus was accumulating under these... I could put some in though, I take your point about these making homes for worms and other tiny critters...

:thumbup:
 
coralline said:
I take your point about these making homes for worms and other tiny critters...
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Couple of empty shells, especially bigger, upto golf ball size would be great.

If you have a smaller piece of liverock in your display with bristle worms underneath it, then move that rock to the sump. With the worms. They will move out to the shells. Just place the shells nearby.
 
pictures of my sump, DSB and display tank (showing all the DIY rock)

I hope the attached pictures are visible...:)
(I have since siphoned excess detritus off the DSB floor, also removed the bio balls from the 2nd last chamber and the filter sock of ceramic pieces in the return chamber)

20121023_180428.jpg


20121023_180438.jpg


20121023_180502.jpg
 
Your live rock looks like good quality,but with those deep sand beds, they will give you troubles in the long term with life near or on them and algae is life.

The algae are made up of a proportion of calcium carbonate for its structural integrity and it will house plankton.

This may sound good and is for the short term, but calcium carbonate,the constantly shed silica shells of plankton and precipitating calcium will block the porus nature of the deep sand bed no matter what you do or are told to do.

The results are, ever lessoning anaerobic depth/area and the same with the first 15 mill that should remain aerobic to burn off oxygen as the water penetrates deeper to be oxidised from nitrate to nitrogen, then below this toxic gases will be emitted from the depths of the bed.

This keeps the better result you could have had, at bay over time.

In 2 months from cycling it will work great, in 6 months it will be fantastic, in 2 years it has already started to decline in results and in 4 years you will have had to buy or make a nitrate reactor or go with vodka dosing out of desperation!

Nitrate poisoning of life is a very low process and its hard to put it to something until many years have shown you.

They drop dead or disappear as they wedge in somewhere as they die for reasons you can't see, but they have been dieing for months, possibly years until the cortisol, normally, has done its job on them.

For an anaerobic area to work at its best, nothing but porus areas or porus material should be there and no particles or life should be associated with it in any way.

Then you can enjoy 0 nitrate levels permanently and very rare waters changes like it do.

The killer of marine aquarium fish is that they drink the water they live in.

Massive amounts per day and two organs separate the fresh from the salt and use this water to off set osmotic penetration of salts into their flesh from their surrounding waters.

What’s in the water gets into your fish and creates a stress respones, slight or severe, it matters not, it will encourage cortisol production and this weakens immune systems, for parasites and damages organs, death.

Give it some years and you will know what I mean.
 
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pkc said:
shed silica shells
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Play sand is inert.
Do not leach silica.
What is the major component of glass? Silica.

One or two nassarius snails (depending on size) and you have enough disturbance of the surface to prevent blockage of the sand. A couple of hermits (again depending on size) will do great to help and clean up the excess settlement in the meantime. Once job is done you can move them back to the display. Maybe leave one or 2.

Even sea sand, obviously depending on where and how you collected is inert. Will not leach silica. at worst it could leach calcium and that is good. But you need really low PH for that to happen. Some sand particles if it is made up of a lot of black oyster shells for example can leach phosphates. Other minerals in the sea sand could be an issue, again, depending on pollution mostly.

50mm PVC pipe can handle up to 6000L/h under gravity. And you got 3. Should have no problems if you increase the flow rate. Just do not keep macro algae like cheato in the first DSB as it could block the pipes.

Replacing the blue return line with a flexible hose would also remove some back pressure on the return pump. Less bends.
 
RiaanP said:
Play sand is inert.
Do not leach silica.
What is the major component of glass? Silica.

One or two nassarius snails (depending on size) and you have enough disturbance of the surface to prevent blockage of the sand. A couple of hermits (again depending on size) will do great to help and clean up the excess settlement in the meantime. Once job is done you can move them back to the display. Maybe leave one or 2.
Click to expand...

Hi Riaan,

I think possibly you have misunderstood PKC, what I think he is saying is that the silica or calcium carbonate cell wall structures of microscopic algae especially if kept in close proximity, over time drop into the DSB.

Over years this leads to the distruction of the sand bed's usefulness as a nitrate reducer.

Hermits or sandsifting stars are not going to get rid of the cells walls, only sift them into the sand, so that an inch down you have a solid blockage, and a no water flow will lead to anoxic, poisonous areas (no good for nitrate reduction).

Then to pkc, no reference to you Riaan:).

Thank you pkc for two interesting posts. It's great to have some fresh/ broader insights.

Unfortunately on forums such as these the information that gets passed around is often sifted or compressed by repetition (often by well meaning and quickest-to-the-thread newbees) into easy-to-understand and use "soundbites" .

What ultimately happens is that the broad base of information initially available gets deminished, which is sad.

So thank you for the time and fresh (for a while anyway) insights.:)

Even if you are from Oz;).
 
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coralline said:
I hope the attached pictures are visible...:)
(I have since siphoned excess detritus off the DSB floor, also removed the bio balls from the 2nd last chamber and the filter sock of ceramic pieces in the return chamber)
Click to expand...
@coralline do you have a build thread for your DIY lights?
 
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Two very compelling arguments! I like it! Glad I don't have a DSB.
 
Bob the (reef)builder said:
Hi Riaan,

I think possibly you have misunderstood PKC, what I think he is saying is that the silica or calcium carbonate cell wall structures of microscopic algae especially if kept in close proximity, over time drop into the DSB.

Over years this leads to the distruction of the sand bed's usefulness as a nitrate reducer.

Hermits or sandsifting stars are not going to get rid of the cells walls, only sift them into the sand, so that an inch down you have a solid blockage, and a no water flow will lead to anoxic, poisonous areas (no good for nitrate reduction).

Then to pkc, no reference to you Riaan:).

Thank you pkc for two interesting posts. It's great to have some fresh/ broader insights.

Unfortunately on forums such as these the information that gets passed around is often sifted or compressed by repetition (often by well meaning and quickest-to-the-thread newbees) into easy-to-understand and use "soundbites" .

What ultimately happens is that the broad base of information initially available gets deminished, which is sad.

So thank you for the time and fresh (for a while anyway) insights.:)

Even if you are from Oz;).
Click to expand...

Lol,yep from Auz.

Well said mate,you get exactly what I mean.

I have used the plenum style, deep sand beds, all of variations of granule sizes over the last 30 plus years, I am lucky here that I get my life forms for free and unlimited as well.

This has enabled me to experiment a great deal on every thing.

I put what I have learnt out there, if some one listens, great if they don’t, well some have to learn the hard way like I did, so be it.

The most important find I made and its still not believed is that the protists white spot and velvet can be controlled by the protists that graze on the tanks bacteria, you know when a tank hits maturity they explode in numbers.

These stronger relatives control them far better then any cure thrown at them.

The silica aspect of what was typed I have known that from a very long time ago, most of the early days glass and silicon is from plankton shells mined from beach sand.

You dig up non moved or tide flushed beach sand and smell it, that smell is a tank killer and that’s what deep sand beds have in them after some time!!
 
pkc said:
The most important find I made and its still not believed is that the protists white spot and velvet can be controlled by the protists that graze on the tanks bacteria, you know when a tank hits maturity they explode in numbers.

These stronger relatives control them far better then any cure thrown at them.
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We are your humble students, agree with @Toolboysa, please start a thread.:thumbup:
 
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Guys my knowledge came mostly from being stubborn and a lot,no millions of mistakes, but back when my brother and I started the collecting and him first with the hobby side of it, there was no real help, it was quite hard.
 
RiaanP said:
Play sand is inert. Do not leach silica. What is the major component of glass? Silica.
Click to expand...
Glass and silica sand not exactly the same chemical compound any more. And not all sand is silica based..a lot of play sand is just plain washed sand.

pkc said:
In 2 months from cycling it will work great, in 6 months it will be fantastic, in 2 years it has already started to decline in results and in 4 years you will have had to buy or make a nitrate reactor or go with vodka dosing out of desperation!
Click to expand...
:thumbup:


pkc said:
but with those deep sand beds, they will give you troubles in the long term with life near or on them and algae is life.
Click to expand...
:thumbup:


pkc said:
The hobby has been kidnapped over the last 30 plus years, even worse from 15 years back and the natural processes that control the planet that we can use for our reef aquarium are condemned and push aside and rediculed, because there is no money in natural processes or glory from being the first to buy it or can afford it, you can make all the clean and natural ways your self!
Click to expand...
I totally agree with you when one read the treads on the forums you will notice this is exactly what happened that is why the industry is booming out of its seems...now days the person with the most gadgets and biggest bank is the cheese and the know all and new comers gets told they must have this skimmer and this reactor and that light and this and that, But in under 5 years or even within 1 he packs up as it becomes too much of a mission to keep it all going as for every new gadget he gets he need another to keep that one on track or a power failure cooks his tank or some gadget failed.. And for those that do stick around you will find that they slowly got rid of their gadgets and now run with very little if any... Keeping marines has become money making scheme...and most lfs don’t have a clue they just push product and second hand knowledge..gained by doing some speed reading.
 
Very true mate

The hobby is very simple, for everything none delicate including low photosynthetic corals, a robust bio system is all that is needed, just remember that a bio system has to have no possibility of particles getting to it or the nitrate oxidation processes are compromised.

With delicate life forms of a high photosynthetic nature you have to achieve near 0 to 0 phosphates and toxins, that’s about it.

The lighting can be done quite cheaply with LEDs these days and far better I might add then T5s and halides.

One thing though,pre filtering especially settling pre filters are what will give your hobby simple success and its greatest longevity for all levels of hobbyists.

I will do up a tread on how you can eradicate parasites naturally soon, lots of wording needed for that one.

Its very simple though.
 
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