The Greater scheme of things for Aquarists

Propagating corals to reduce harvest causes the loss of income to villages who may then resort to other destructive practices and this has been shown to be the case. It has also turned out to be a great way to pass unseen pests, pathogens and predators within the global aquarium community.

I apologise for bringing this up again, however this statement really bothers me.

I quote from " Aquarium corals, selection, husbandry and natural selection" By Eric Borneman Page 404

" in North America, numerous commercial and amateur or hobbyist propagators are taking small cuttings or fragments of soft and stony corals and growing new specimens or colonies that are in great demand by aquarists. They are typically disease-free and are provided to the aquarist without the stress of collection,long-distance shipping and traumatic periods spent in holding facilities.They do not have to endure the many shocks of long flights and frequent drastic enviromental changes. And most importantly, with captive grown livestock there is no negative impact on natural coral reefs."

I would think that looking for a solution to the issue of passing on pests, would have less impact on reefs.

Please if anything I said was taken out of context please feel free to correct me.
 
well spotted kanga!!
 
mr borneman
please would you respond? I feel this is a very important matter and you have now contradicted yourself!

regards
 
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Calvin/ Kanga

The book referred to was published in April 2001, some 6 years ago.

Science and research are fortunately very dynamic and conditions change very rapidly according to market demands and legislation.

I refer you to our own Draft Alien Species Regulation and more specific the Draft Alien Species Register that includes most probably 90% of our tank inhabitants.

Conservations fear here is the introduction of these species into our environment may “pass unseen pests, pathogens and predators” whilst our environment might not have the natural defences and or controls for these species.

Regards

Carl
 
Hi guys

Let’s take this thread back to post #1 by Kanga

“are we benefiting our oceans”

Yes, I think we can all agree on the following:

Awareness
Scientific research

Financial gain (Collecting, catching, Propagating), with emphasis on sustainability and due care of environmental requirements.

Self development. The challenge offered by Reefkeeping and the continuous quest for the perfect tank. This has forced us to start reading and studying and do research on what work and what not. In this process we have discovered how to keep seawater fish, then softies and inverts and now LPS and SPS and every day stare at our own little creations in awe.

Now, to match this feeling against the above “are we benefiting our oceans” is a very difficult one and suddenly a lot of emotions come out.

Catching a fish to eat or a fish to display?

A non-aquarists view might be you are cruel or whoaaa I would like to have a tank like that, but that same person saying it is cruel or “reefkeepers are in fact doing no good to the environment” will sit down and savour a meal of Sushi or fish with no regards to the depletion of resources or that that particular meal was harvested using dynamite.

For myself am enjoying the fruit of the ocean, I care for my decorative fish and species and pay very expensively for them.

I add to the economical value for the sea harvest and thus add benefit to our vast aqua farms out there.

Regards

Carl​
 
Calvin/ Kanga

The book referred to was published in April 2001, some 6 years ago.

Science and research are fortunately very dynamic and conditions change very rapidly according to market demands and legislation.

Regards

Carl

So are you saying this book and many others like it is outdated and should no longer be sold/purchased and used in our industry/hobby? Yes there is some amazing info in it which is still relevant, but how does a novice like myself know what is current and and what is outdated.

Also do you agree with Eric on his views with coral propagation? I do think coral propagation and as Eric says breeding, is the way forward for our hobby.

I still don't understand though on that point how breeding will help ( I think it will ) and propagation wont? Surely the same people who's income would be compromised by propagation, would also be affected by breeding? Again please, please correct me if I am wrong, if I knew all the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions?

Hi guys

Let’s take this thread back to post #1 by Kanga

“are we benefiting our oceans”
Yes, I think we can all agree on the following:
Awareness
Scientific research

Financial gain (Collecting, catching, Propagating), with emphasis on sustainability and due care of environmental requirements.

Self development. The challenge offered by Reefkeeping and the continuous quest for the perfect tank. This has forced us to start reading and studying and do research on what work and what not. In this process we have discovered how to keep seawater fish, then softies and inverts and now LPS and SPS and every day stare at our own little creations in awe.

Now, to match this feeling against the above “are we benefiting our oceans” is a very difficult one and suddenly a lot of emotions come out.

True, emotion should be left out of this

Catching a fish to eat or a fish to display?

A non-aquarists view might be you are cruel or whoaaa I would like to have a tank like that, but that same person saying it is cruel or “reefkeepers are in fact doing no good to the environment” will sit down and savour a meal of Sushi or fish with no regards to the depletion of resources or that that particular meal was harvested using dynamite.

We are not discussing fish or anything harvested as food


For myself am enjoying the fruit of the ocean, I care for my decorative fish and species and pay very expensively for them.

So if you slept with a 12 year old Thai girl because you payed dearly for it would that make it right, even if it was legal? Ok dont get exited my point is just this, the fact that we pay and pay dearly does not in any way justify what we do, or otherwhise.

I add to the economical value for the sea harvest and thus add benefit to our vast aqua farms out there.

I would agree with this, I however do not know how we would judge this?

Regards

Carl​

Yes Carl I too have decorative fish in my home, I like keeping them, I dont want to stop but what I am asking is, what can we as reefkeepers do better to help the environment?

If cyanide fishing is a thing of the past, fantastic and I am glad. If it is not what can we do to stop it? And how do we know? should I just take your and Eric's word? (which I would be happy to do if you gave me a valid reason)

I like Sunbursts idea of stating a list of species that should be discouraged, this could help

Once again, I am only asking the question, I do not claim to know more than anyone else. If you think otherwise, by all means tell me why, if you are right I will think differently and you will ave one more person spreading the right info.
 
And also, most importantly, always question the sources of your information, kanga.

Ah, but Mr. Borneman, I think that's exactly what he's doing. ;-)

btw, Welcome to MASA

Re the topic at hand, I really like something Dr. Shimek said during one of his more recent lectures. He was asked what we could do about the dying reefs. Ron is too pessimistic to think that they're not well beyond saving at this point, so he said "take care of your animals... learn as much as you can about them." Because, the harsh reality is that one day (possibly even soon), the only places some of these animals will exist will be in aquariums.

This is why it's soooo important for us to try our best to 1) learn how BEST (not just adequately) care for them and 2) how to sexually reproduce and raise them in captivity.

As I like to say (though it is a bit extreme), I think every reef animal should be treated as if it were the last of its kind on earth. Because one day it may very well be. And maybe if people took this more to heart, we wouldn't have people catching fish with explosives and cyanide or letting stocks of threatened corals die in warehouses...
 
Y not teach the people that do the collecting how to frag and propagate corals, so they can make a "propagation reef" so in the end of the day they still have an income.

That would be nice, but as far as I understand it, the people who actually collect these corals (at least in the Indo-Pacific) don't have the education/financial/etc. means to do this.
 
That would be nice, but as far as I understand it, the people who actually collect these corals (at least in the Indo-Pacific) don't have the education/financial/etc. means to do this.

Short term no, long I have to think this has got to be goal.
 
Just a reality check peeps, the temperature of this planet has fluctuated on a regular(ish) basis for the last few thousand million years - and guess what - corals are still here, so long after the human race has finished messing about, i'm willing to bet that corals will still be here.


Lets rememger that we are NOT that significant.
 
That would be nice, but as far as I understand it, the people who actually collect these corals (at least in the Indo-Pacific) don't have the education/financial/etc. means to do this.

What is really involved in doing this, brake coral attach to rock, put back in sea, harvest in the same manner as they did a year later.


:thumbup:

I am shure it won't take much to train them.
 
I think it should surely be a goal! (as breeding should also be) Fragging and propagating are great, but for species to survive and thrive, they need genetic diversity. Unfortunately, as cool and worthwhile as it is, fragging doesn't create new genetic individuals.

(I wish I could say/explain more, but I'm a little busy here in paradise... ;-) )
 
I refer you to our own Draft Alien Species Regulation and more specific the Draft Alien Species Register that includes most probably 90% of our tank inhabitants.

Conservations fear here is the introduction of these species into our environment may “pass unseen pests, pathogens and predators” whilst our environment might not have the natural defences and or controls for these species.

Regards

Carl

So this should not be done, or Should it be done responsibly?
 
... My attitude to the environment is that of a realist and not that of a bunny hugger. If I am hungry I will eat the bunny, if I am cold I will use it fur for a coat but, I will also assure that there is a bunny for tomorrow and the next winter.
Well said, and I agree with this... it is the same as with hunting - we pay for the privilege to hunt, and in so doing the land owners gain financially by conserving game, not turning wild bush into ploughed fields, and not killing the breeding stock.

IMHO the same holds true for the marine aquarium hobby, if done ethically.

Our reefs are decimated by pollution (who uses under-arm deodorant :nono:), silt run-off from our rivers caused by farming (millions more poor hungry mouths to feed every year, so don't blame the farmers...) and increase of ocean temperature (global warming caused by burning fossil fuels - who does not drive a car or use electricity...). In light of the above, the impact of our hobby is negligible.

Hennie
 
Lets rememger that we are NOT that significant.
Weeman, I tend to disagree with you here. We are the first species that has the ability, and has to a rapidly increasing extent, the ability to affect the earths systems on a scale that exceeds many natural events (with the probable exception of a major meteor strike). Thus whilst we may not be significant in the greater cosmic scheme of things (yet!), we are certainly very significant in terms of the impacts on our home planet
 
Kanga:

>>The coral controversy mentioned is a whole other debate, whether it happened or did not was not the point I tried to make, Incidents or the possibilty of something like this happening (again I am not saying it did or didnt) does certainly leave a negative view on our hobby.<<

Visit grand conspiracy.com. You'll find equally credible and useful information. I do think you meant it intentionally, but I find your response civil and without question worth discussing. And, for what it's worth, the negative views of our hobby stem from the fact that over 20 million fish and unknown millions of corals and invertebrates are taken from stressed resource countries with little oversight to stock luxury items for reefkeepers who kill them by the millions, primarily Americans. The US unquestionably is the major import problem and Indonesia and the Philippines unquestionably the export problems. The false conspiracy to which you refer has background you can never understand and had no impact on the hobby except for the intentional drama created by gossip-mongering aquarists.

>>Calvin, you are eighteen years old. Your response is what I would expect. I was reefkeeping before you were born and conducting science when you were in grade school. You are still naive, no offense to you. No offense taken by me, no need to apologize. You are who you are and go let your blood boil<<

thalion:

>>What is really involved in doing this, brake coral attach to rock, put back in sea, harvest in the same manner as they did a year later.<<

Restoration ecology is in its infancy and there are few if any good long-term monitoring of its effectiveness. There are also no established guidelines for growing corals in one environment and placing them into another. This is even true for the same species collected in one location and simply taken in situ to another location where the genetic diversity may be different and this is without the significant issues involving biosecurity. Furthermore, restoration ecology suffers from the fact that corals grown in nurseries (ex situ or in situ) are often used without mitigation of existing stressors and factors that caused the corals' demise in the first place and currently ship groundings or mechanical disturbances seem to be the most effective use for such methods. A workshop is planned to discuss the best practice methods, and I and others are currently involved in pilot restoration studies through NOAA and other funding organizations.

kanga
>>I still don't understand though on that point how breeding will help ( I think it will ) and propagation wont? Surely the same people who's income would be compromised by propagation, would also be affected by breeding? Again please, please correct me if I am wrong, if I knew all the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions?<<

Because larvae are removed for rearing outside an area where pathogens and parasites can gain access and able to be removed or isolated easily if they occur. The numbers of larvae (in the thousands or millions) means less in the scheme of things than the loss of a handful of branch clippings. Also, breeding techniques are in their infancy but preserve genetic diversity, broodstock and result in a much higher number of propagules with less impact than propagation. Propagation is still fine, but in theory and unfortunately not in practice, which leads me to the following...

kanga and calvin

>>I apologise for bringing this up again, however this statement really bothers me.

I quote from " Aquarium corals, selection, husbandry and natural selection" By Eric Borneman Page 404

" in North America, numerous commercial and amateur or hobbyist propagators are taking small cuttings or fragments of soft and stony corals and growing new specimens or colonies that are in great demand by aquarists. They are typically disease-free and are provided to the aquarist without the stress of collection,long-distance shipping and traumatic periods spent in holding facilities.They do not have to endure the many shocks of long flights and frequent drastic enviromental changes. And most importantly, with captive grown livestock there is no negative impact on natural coral reefs."

I would think that looking for a solution to the issue of passing on pests, would have less impact on reefs.

Please if anything I said was taken out of context please feel free to correct me.<<

Yes, much of the material in my book is now outdated. As it should be. Both science and aquaristics move forward. When I first met Charlie Veron, I reveled in his company and praised his book Corals of Australia and the Indo-Pacific. He laughed and said, "well, don't love it too much - probably half of the species in it are wrong."
And, in response to my "contradiction" I have been presenting at meetings (scientific and aquarium) the issues with pests and pathogen transmission through fragmentation for the past two years and wrote about it in 2007 in the following passage

"In recent years, the practice of trading captive propagated fragments of corals has resulted in the concurrent transfer of pest species. Many years ago, the transfer of pest species was notable with the spread of the nuisance anemones, Aiptasia spp. To date there is still no easy method of completely eradicating these rapidly proliferating anemones once they are established in an aquarium, and they are now found as unwanted hitchhikers from populations established in wholesale, retail and hobbyist aquariums around the world. A range of biological, manual and chemical means are used alone or in combination in attempts to control these anemones, usually unsuccessfully. Several years later, similar aquarium outbreaks began occurring with another pest anemone tentatively identified as Anemonia majano. Other nuisance species, including algae, flatworms (e.g., Convolutriloba sp.), cyanobacteria and hydroids, also become problematic for many aquarists by their rapid spread, blooms and difficulty controlling proliferation, to the detriment of other desirable species in the aquarium. Many of these common species, however, are normally present in the aquarium, and transfer may be less important in transient or chronic population increases.

There have been occurrences of coral predators and parasites reported as “hitchhikers” on wild-collected corals and live rock for as long as the trade for the reef aquarium hobby has existed. Recent years, however, have seen the introduction of several pest species that are difficult to eradicate and are easily and unintentionally transferred between aquariums through the increasingly common practice of selling or trading captive-grown coral fragments and colonies. It is not known exactly when the initial introduction of these pests occurred, or if there are regular inputs into the trade through continued collections. One of the more common events that has become a mainstay of many local aquarium clubs are “frag swaps,” where club members, often numbering in the hundreds, get together and exchange corals and other livestock. All too often, little to no effort is made to carefully inspect or quarantine livestock acquired at these events. In addition, many retail stores have begun buying fragments of captive-raised corals to resell, and hobbyists have begun selling fragments of corals on eBay and other websites. With so many opportunities for parasites, predators and pathogens to be spread rapidly, it is little wonder that these pest species have become so widespread, and some are even spread internationally.

The aquarium epizootic of parasitic copepods (Tegastes acroporanus) specific to Acropora spp. has become a global concern. While parasitized corals can exist without obvious detriment for many years, high populations of these copepods on some corals causes a bleaching response and can result in mortality (Borneman 2004). Effective treatments are available for this pest, although none are commercially available (Dorton 2004, Borneman 2004). Other coral pests, however, are corallivorous, difficult to eradicate and almost invariably result in total colony mortality."

I hope that answers all of your questions. I have a forum at SAReefkeeping.com if anyone would like to continue this discussion with me.
 
I hope that answers all of your questions. I have a forum at SAReefkeeping.com if anyone would like to continue this discussion with me.

We kinda like discussing it over here at Marine Aquariums South Africa ;)
 
... If you want to be a responsible hobbyist, learn breeding techniques, utilize quarantine, maximize survivability and minimize transport stress, be pro-education, volunteer for conservation groups or support them financially, inform others of inappropriate species and do not purchase them, and work towards collaborating or forming local action groups.

Eric, welcometomasa

We are honoured to have you on this forum.

Hennie
 
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Im glad yo havnt taken anny offence Eric
im not in reefkeeping for this at all!
 
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